CS vs Non CS Lenses

[BigBabyEarl]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm slowly building up my kit (sllllooooooowwwwly). I shoot the S like I would an M. One lens at a time, camera in a small bag, photos of whatever I see interesting. On paper I have no need for CS. However, not knowing what the future holds, I may someday want a small strobe for portraits. Or maybe Leica makes a mirrorless camera and needs lenses with CS. Anyhow, for people like me- is it worth it to go after the CS lenses? They are hard to find used and always cost more, but I'll do it if it's worth it.

[albireo_double]

If your expected flash work doesn't extend beyond a "small strobe for portraits", then you most likely don't need CS lenses, unless a meaningful proportion of your portraits will be taken outdoors. If most of your portrait work takes place in a studio (or indoors) then the max sync speed of the FP shutter (1/125s) will generally be sufficient, at least within the range of apertures (5.6-11) that provide sufficient DOF to keep your subject's facial features in focus using a typical portrait lens (100-180 mm).

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[LorenzoLandini]

If I was you I'd perhaps consider one CS lens in your outfit to have the flexibility later on. You don't need all the lenses with leaf shutter. I also found that with the S lenses you need to be patient and take your time looking for pre-owned or used gear at decent prices. CS lenses are indeed more expensive, demanding a 10-15% premium, but I also see a relatively wide range of prices for lenses in similar conditions and you may end up with a CS lens at a price very close to what you'd have paid for a non CS lens bought in a hurry. Not surprisingly the premium is slightly greater for portraits lens (the 120 and 180 for instance) over the 70, so the 70 CS can be found at prices very similar to the non CS. Depending on what your subject is when using a flash, you may actually prefer the 70 (for instance with kids always moving fairly quickly a wider lens would be my choice to be used with a fill-in flash).

 

My two cents.. 

[dfarkas]

Just to reiterate, CS lenses are really only useful when using battery-operated high output strobes outdoors to overpower the sun. An on-camera flash doesn't have the power for this. I'm talking about Profoto, Elinchrom, Broncolor, Hensel, etc. 1200Ws kits that can be used at much lower power levels and at wider apertures when using the faster 1/1000th of second sync speed afforded by CS lenses. Back when the CS lenses were just prototypes, I got my hands on a 120 CS to do some testing on the S2. I put in a bunch of samples of different shutter speed and aperture combinations to show examples of with and without CS capability. Of course, at the time, the sync speed on the prototype was just 1/500th. Leica was able to offer an additional stop before bringing the lenses to market. 

 

 

Testing the CS lenses on the Leica S2

 

 

[Georges]

Do not forget that CS lenses are also noticeably heavier than non CS lenses.

 

So, if you really don't need it and you like to carry your camera / lens everywhere, you will feel the difference.

[jip]

I've got the 70mm CS and it's great for fill in flash with the SF 58! BUT yes it is heavier than the NON CS lens. 

[BigBabyEarl]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Just to reiterate, CS lenses are really only useful when using battery-operated high output strobes outdoors to overpower the sun. An on-camera flash doesn't have the power for this. I'm talking about Profoto, Elinchrom, Broncolor, Hensel, etc. 1200Ws kits that can be used at much lower power levels and at wider apertures when using the faster 1/1000th of second sync speed afforded by CS lenses. Back when the CS lenses were just prototypes, I got my hands on a 120 CS to do some testing on the S2. I put in a bunch of samples of different shutter speed and aperture combinations to show examples of with and without CS capability. Of course, at the time, the sync speed on the prototype was just 1/500th. Leica was able to offer an additional stop before bringing the lenses to market. 

 

 

 

Testing the CS lenses on the Leica S2

 

But what if you're using a flash like the sf64 and want to shoot it at 1/250 or 1/500? It seems like for sharpness I'm always 2/f or 3/f for shutter. Also, will a mirrorless S need to have the CS lenses in theory a la X1D?

[jip]

If you shoot flash your shutter speed doesn't matter so much, except for fill in flash. But 1/125 is usually more than fast enought for flash photography because the flash is shorter so 

THAT is your actual exposure time. 

 

Let's say we set a shutter speed of 8 seconds in a pitch dark room your subject moves around and then during those 8 seconds you fire a flash. You will have a perfectly frozen subject, because the flash duration is very short. 

 

The SF64 like the SF58 has HSS which helps too even without CS you can 'sync' up to 1/4000th of course you'll lose some power.

 

A mirrorless S will need to have CS lenses IF it has no electronical or focal plane shutter.

[jip]

But to add: Leica M is also mirrorless but does have a shutter, I don't see why Leica can't make a Mirrorless Leica S with a focal plane shutter. 1/1000 isn't that fast anyway (reason why I hate the Hasselblad H series with the 1/800 maximum leaf shutter, and a lack of a focal plane shutter.) I've heard they became better now but still... not enough. Leica S all the way <3 

[Echo63]

If you shoot flash your shutter speed doesn't matter so much, except for fill in flash. But 1/125 is usually more than fast enought for flash photography because the flash is shorter so 

THAT is your actual exposure time. 

 

Let's say we set a shutter speed of 8 seconds in a pitch dark room your subject moves around and then during those 8 seconds you fire a flash. You will have a perfectly frozen subject, because the flash duration is very short. 

 

 

 

not quite true.

the Leaf shutter and resultant 1/1000 sync speed is very helpful for shooting with flash - in situations where you are fighting with the sun.

in a dark room - you are correct, the shutter speed doesn't matter much.

 

with a normal lens, your max sync speed is 1/125

in full sun, using flash, your exposure is likely to be 1/125 100iso f22 - f22 at 100iso needs a lot of flash power to expose the subject properly.

with a leaf shutter lens you can shoot 3 stops faster, and open your lens 3 stops - suddenly your flash only needs to get to hit f8  - so you can wind it down 3 stops, and enjoy faster recycle times and longer battery life OR use a light modifier that eats a bit more light OR move the light back a bit, and have your frame less limited by the flash location (or a combination of all three options)

 

you can still shoot at 1/125 and f22 if you want, but it gives you the option of opening up the aperture for narrower DOF, or for winding the shutter speed up and killing the sunlight, lighting the image mainly with flash.

 

when i was working at the newspaper, i would have loved a camera that synced at 1/1000 just for the options it opened up.

(and before anyone brings it up - HSS doesn't count, once you go past sync speed you typically lose 2 stops of output, so unless you had plenty of extra power before you started, you wind up further behind  - creative control of DOF can be had with ND filters, but your flash still needs to work just as hard)

[tom0511]

I agree, usefull for fill flash in bright light when one wants to shoot at wider appartures.

[Photon42]

Digging out an older thread here, but as I got a used S2, I am looking into various aspects. If I pair the S2 with my older Metz-Flash and the respective SCA shoe, HSS does actually work. It also does work with a longer Nikon-type Sync cable, which is very useful.

 

Even more useful I found that my Cactus Flash RF60 does actually provide an "HSS sympathy mode". Not exactly straight forward to configure, however. The Cactus flash needs to be in Master mode and the optical slave needs to be turned on. But it does work. With the right brackets and Diffusors, it would essentially double the power of the Metz, if both would should through the same modifier.

 

Bottom line for me at the moment: HSS goes up to 1/4000s, so that seems to be alright for a little fill flash application. No need for a central (leaf) shutter here.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Photon42

[jip]

not quite true.

the Leaf shutter and resultant 1/1000 sync speed is very helpful for shooting with flash - in situations where you are fighting with the sun.

in a dark room - you are correct, the shutter speed doesn't matter much.

 

 

 

As I said, "except for fill in flash" (obviously with bright sunlight... why else would you need a fill in flash?!) You even quoted me on it...?

 

This is why I have CS lenses... 

Edited August 11, 2017 by jip

[jip]

Bottom line for me at the moment: HSS goes up to 1/4000s, so that seems to be alright for a little fill flash application. No need for a central (leaf) shutter here.

 

 

Problem with HSS is that you lose flash power considerably... The faster your shutter speed the lower your real flash power will be... 

 

The 1/1000th shutter speed helps with this considerably since you can use your flash at full power. 

[Milan_S]

I've got the 70mm CS and it's great for fill in flash with the SF 58! BUT yes it is heavier than the NON CS lens. 

You can also use the SF 58 with HSS for fill the CS is just great for off camera strobes. I can use also my non CS lens and the SF58 on HSS for a little bit of fill. A CS lens just for on camera fill flash is overkill IMHO. I used the 120mm APO CS with Elinchrom kit with great results ...

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jip]

It matters a lot with SF58... HSS loses so much power it's useless in my opinion for bright outdoor scenes where you need fill flash.

[Photon42]

It matters a lot with SF58... HSS loses so much power it's useless in my opinion for bright outdoor scenes where you need fill flash.

 

 

It does. If the subject flash distance is small however, the flash can swing it. The loss of power is two to three stops, if I recall correctly. I would only need HSS wide open, so it is fine. Try it. And - you cannot go up to 1/4000s with CS, so if you therefore have to use a smaller aperture because you are limited to 1/1000, the loss of power is compensated.

 

Cheers

Ivo

Edited August 11, 2017 by Photon42

[atanabe]

Just to add another feature benefit of CS lenses is the minimizing of vibrations caused by the mirror.  One drawback of the S system's handheld photos is the vibrations caused by holding the camera and by the mirror.  The accepted rule of thumb for doubling the focal length as the minimum shutter speed for this camera is the norm.  When I first tried CS lenses in the CS mode, I found that I can safely shoot at 1:1 of the focal length.  Albeit there are trade offs, top speed 1/1000th and a slight delay but the benefits of being able to shoot at extended shutter speeds is a big bonus for me.  The sequence of CS shutter closing, mirror up, FP shutter open, CS shutter active, FP shutter close, mirror down, CS shutter open is a complex task.  The fact that the mirror vibration happens milliseconds before the exposure helps in an ever so slight a way.  Does this replace using a tripod or other support device for ultimate image quality? No, but it extends the usefulness when I want to shoot handheld.   

[JohnBrawley]

I'm new to the Leica S.

 

I've only had my S006 for about a week.

 

I happened to get CS lenses, not by choice, that's just what was included with my very well priced kit.

 

I tried out the CS (not with a flash) just to see what or if there were difference was and noticed there was a difference with the Bokeh.  Has anyone else noticed this before when switching between CS and FP mode ?

 

Heres the 70mm wide open

https://www.flickr.com/gp/johnbrawley/u4on25

 

And same exposure settings with the CS mode.  

https://www.flickr.com/gp/johnbrawley/2ba7j1

 

Notice the star pattern ?

 

See the out of focus highlights ?  (also just noticed a big hair top right !)

 

Any explanation ?  I haven't gone back and really tested my other lens or different apertures because I frankly have no plans to use the CS mode.

 

JB

Edited August 18, 2017 by JohnBrawley

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jeff S]

I'm new to the Leica S.

 

I've only had my S006 for about a week.

 

I happened to get CS lenses, not by choice, that's just what was included with my very well priced kit.

 

I tried out the CS (not with a flash) just to see what or if there were difference was and noticed there was a difference with the Bokeh. Has anyone else noticed this before when switching between CS and FP mode ?

 

Heres the 70mm wide open

https://www.flickr.com/gp/johnbrawley/u4on25

 

And same exposure settings with the CS mode.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/johnbrawley/2ba7j1

 

Notice the star pattern ?

 

See the out of focus highlights ? (also just noticed a big hair top right !)

 

Any explanation ? I haven't gone back and really tested my other lens or different apertures because I frankly have no plans to use the CS mode.

 

JB

Might help to understand mechanics and structure of the lens central shutter (with blades) vs the focal plane camera shutter (curtains)....

 

http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2012/03/testing-the-cs-lenses-on-the-leica-s2-740/

 

Jeff