New SL with 24-90... image quality

[JamesBarry]

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Ok, I have just sold all my Canon gear  and committed to the SL w/24-90 to be used in combination with my trusted M9/50 Lux.  I am a full time photographer (specialising in portraiture and property).   Having read threads relating to poor focus, shift focus etc, I was not put me off.  There have been some v favourable and positive reviews from those photographers on here I admire and trust, so went for it last week.

 

My question is, have I come to rely on the reliably sharp and wonderful rendition of the M9/50 Lux combo thus setting my expectations too high for my new acquisition?  Having taken several hundred images over the past three days, carried our careful focusing tests at all focal lengths using a tripod (image stabilisation off), I'm afraid I have been left disappointed.. could I have a 'bad' lens copy?

 

Hopefully the attached image with crop will show a typical example: 

 

 

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[steppenw0lf]

Sorry, the images are too small. I cannot see any reason to be disappointed. Can you explain your findings ? Also would it be useful to get more details (ISO, aperture, focal length etc.) Maybe you can use Flickr to publish the image in higher resolution.

I do not love the 24-90 for its size. So I suggest you use an even bigger lens ( ): The Apo 90-280 is brilliant and probably slightly better at 90mm. After all it is apo corrected. But probably it is taken at 50mm ?

 

Did you also try your 50 lux on the SL ? Is it sharper ?

Edited October 22, 2016 by steppenw0lf

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[JeffWright]

I find it pretty hard to make an analysis from images this small, but resolution and sharpness looks pretty good here on the web. Also, without knowing what you've done in post-processing or if these are just straight out of camera jpegs, it's hard to hazard much of an analysis. One shouldn't forget that the 50 Summilux-M is a very refined, well made lens. As I recall, although it's not branded as such, it is apochromatic, and has very favorable MTF graphs.  Remember, this is a prime lens that is only eclipsed in cost and specs by the 50 Apo-Summicron and the Zeiss Otus lenses. So to me it's not surprising that the 24-90 doesn't perform quite as well, and that matches my own experience.  

 

I don't find my 24-90 to be sharper than any of my Leica M primes in this range, except perhaps the 75 Summilux (although I've not done a direct comparison). I would bet that even the 75 'lux gives the zoom a run for it's money when stopped down past 2.8. The 24-90 doesn't seem to perform quite as well from perhaps 75-90, although it may just be that it's not spectacular at 90 like the 90-280. The 24 SEM, 35 'lux(II), 50 'lux, 75 Apo-Summicron, and 90 Apo-Summicron all beat the 24-90. However, not one of them is a better zoom   , and none have an automatic aperture....

 

I have directly compared the 24-90 to the Canon 24-70 II (the prior non-Leica performance champ in this zoom range) and the 24-90 is noticeably better throughout the range.

 

The M 240 and SL sensors are slightly incrementally better than the M9. I personally am very challenged to distinguish between output from M 240 and SL, as they are very close in performance at my usual low ISOs. But there's nothing magical about the SL or the 24-90 that transports it into some sort of other wordly performance category where the laws of physics and economics are violated.

[Lynx]

I think the photo looks a bit soft. My out of camera Jpgs with the 24-90 have more "bite". How did you focus?

 

//Johan

[JamesBarry]

Thanks.  Yes, more info required - MF using back button/joystick focussing on the tree trunk.  ISO 100, 61mm, f/8 @ 1/100 sec.  Shot RAW with standard tweaking in LR.  

 

I agree, soft is what I am getting on most images even with added contrast, sharpening and clarity.  Colours out of camera are good.  Yes, I find a distant shot looks fine but looking at the detail, there is much 'softness' and lack of bite despite post processing.

 

Apologies for the small images, I tried several attempts to post larger versions but 500kb limit prevented.

 

M9 / Lux currently in Germany for new sensor (corrosion).  One week turn around hopefully!  I will compare like for like as soon as I have them back.

[steppenw0lf]

Here are the rules for uploading photos: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/243529-leica-forum-move-faq-frequently-asked-questions/?do=findComment&comment=2796992

1280x1280 is the largest you can make it, else it is "shrunk" automatically, which is usually no fun.

So maybe convert to jpg (to stay under 500k) and for the crop limit it to 1200x1200 or thereabout.

This should give much bigger photos.

And post only one image at a time - the sum of all photos in a single entry must be under 500k.

 

In your place I would try this:

Use AF (classical with top shutter button). Take one image at f 8 as you did and one with f 4 and one with f 16.

Then crank up ISO to 1600 and do the same procedure again.

And finally if possible: Do the same again with camera on tripod and "remote control" via mobile phone or ipad (or any other gadget you like). (ISO100 and ISO1600)

At least one of the images should be "satisfactory" for you.

Edited October 22, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[JamesBarry]

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Yes, attached images exported as Jpegs.  

 

These may not be best examples of what I'm trying to show but thanks for suggested means of testing; will try again tomorrow! 

 

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[JamesBarry]

Cropped - 

 

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[JamesBarry]

Another one - 

 

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[JamesBarry]

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[JamesBarry]

Just getting the hang of this... ISO 800, 90mm, f/4, 1/125.  Focused on top gate rail, manual, single point (focussed with great care..)

 

Hope this is a clearer example!  Soft?

[deep_blue]

 the gate looks not in focus at all. To me it seems that the focus is somewhere behind the gate.

[LD_50]

Agreed, gate doesn't look in focus and odd smearing in the foreground.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

First thing I would do is do is find a standard *test* shot. Something where you can go back and repeat if required. Secondly, how good is your tripod head? The SL isn't a feather weight and sometimes a less than stellar tripod can be worse than none. Maybe use the 12 second timer or the remote app to fire the shutter. Do you need to turn off IS on the SL with a tripod? I know some of the older Canons did but I don't think you have to with the 24-90. I don't.

 

Assuming you have a great *test* technique sorted (which you already did, probably) then I'd suggest you shoot your chosen scene with manual focus first to eliminate the optics as an issue. Wide open and f8 will be enough. Bottom left button to magnify.

 

Then shoot the same thing with AF. It took me a bit to get used to the SL AF. I still think, even with the new firmware (you did load the latest firmware??) that the AF point is every so slightly above the middle of the crosshairs. About half way up the vertical hair is where I still tend to focus on. You should also try the different focus settings (zone etc.. ) to see what works best for you.

 

In your gate shot above, it looks like the AF had grabbed some of the branches behind the gate. It's a bit hard to tell from a web image and it's a bit hot which makes it a bit harder to analyse. Left side of the gate just above the top rail. But that's what I see.

 

If it still doesn't look right then I can send you some DNG's of my test shots. They won't be wholly comparable (different date, time, location and light) but they might give you an idea of how another lens sample performs compared to yours.

 

As far as the 24-90 goes, it should be a fine lens. My copy is very good indeed, for a zoom. Certainly your 'lux with an M adaptor will be better than the zoom. However if you compare it to the Canon version it should be very comparable. The Canon has more contrast, initially but the Leica is more consistent across the frame and throughout the zoom range. I personally prefer the colours of the Leica system. You'll need to spend a bit of time getting you processing down. The SL files aren't really like either the M9 or Canon files. But once you get into a groove I think they're easier to process than both of those cameras.

 

Gordon

 

p.s.

 

Like you, I make the vast majority of my income shooting commercial portraits and realestate/architecture. For these applications the SL is absolutely fantastic. If you have the Canon TS lenses then run (don't walk) and get the Novoflex adaptor. Not so great with the teles but brilliant with the TS lenses.

[dgktkr]

For the shot of the gate, I agree, the first impression is that it might not be in focus. But looking at the image closely, I'm not so sure. The fuzzy edged shadows on the gate and the very bright (blown?) highlights both contribute to an impression of unsharpness. But a close look at the rusty nails (bolt heads?) on the diagonal piece running up and to the left, leaves me with the suspicion that they might not be out of focus. A 100% crop would be helpful here. I also agree that some branches behind the gate look like they might be in focus.

 

dgktkr

Edited October 22, 2016 by dgktkr

[thighslapper]

this is what you should be getting ........ bear in mind you can rack up the sharpening to 100 in LR without penalty if you desire (this image is about 70).......

 

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[thighslapper]

100% crop ..... original is 40mm f6.3 and iso 50.......

 

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If you are used to AF then I assume you have avoided all the usual pitfalls ....... personally I have OIS on ALL the time, unless using a tripod. I would avoid MF on the 24-90 and 90-280 unless you have some very specific  to use it as I have found AF very reliable. Not sure looking at your photos what your issues are due to ...... whilst M series manual lenses probably have the edge over these excellent zooms I have not noticed any difference in real-world use over the last year ......

Edited October 22, 2016 by thighslapper

[JamesBarry]

Thanks for that Gordon.  Will test further tomorrow.  Yes, got the Novoflex to go with sole remaining Canon wide zoom (for interiors).  Just waiting for return of M9/Lux... can't wait to try it out on SL

[JamesBarry]

Thanks Thighslapper.  I would be a v happy man to get a result like yours above!!  That is the standard I'd expect from this lens.  Yes, I am using AF with the joystick (with AF Mode in MF).  I am not using the manual focus ring at all.. sorry for the confusion.  

 

OIS is on all the time, except when using a tripod which is only when shooting property interiors. 

 

The shot of the gate was precisely AF'd on the top cross bar but, as Gordon eluded to, the 'actual' point of focus may not be dead centre of the single point crosshair.  Most of my images taken over the last few days are similar to this in that the object focused on is not 'in focus'.  

 

Yep, latest firmware was installed last week. 

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[acapella]

Dear all,

 

Thank you for this discussion and the thoroughness of it.

 

I am using my Sl with 24-90 for a couple of months now (not as a professional) and must say that I also have the impression that results are 'soft'; at least 'softer' than I expected. (Being used to the M9/50Lux results and Nikon D4/80-200, which I rented before having the SL). And that sharpness corrections are necessary to get the right results you expect out of the camera and lens (of this brand and reputation!)

 

So looking forward to the results and conclusions coming out of these almost scientifically carried out experiments; could it really be the case that some of the lenses are not up to the quality standards you expect. Or is it my learning curve which still needs to 'steepen'. Hope to understand this out of this thread.

 

Once again: thanks!