mickjazz Posted September 30, 2016 Share #1 Posted September 30, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi I recently saw something new in the Leica ltm world though I have seen so many oddities I should not be surprised. A late 30's iiia (from the sn) upgraded the to a iiib. Or* sn simply incorrect and it was a built iiib. The numbers only off a couple hundred. Anyone seen a iiia to iiib upgrade? -mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 30, 2016 Posted September 30, 2016 Hi mickjazz, Take a look here Leica iiia Upgrade to iiib. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
earleygallery Posted September 30, 2016 Share #2 Posted September 30, 2016 Why have you posted this question in the S forum? I think you will get a better response if you post in the collectors forum instead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted September 30, 2016 Share #3 Posted September 30, 2016 I have moved it to the suggested place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted September 30, 2016 Share #4 Posted September 30, 2016 No, but I have a IIIf with a IIIa serial number, so there were some serious upgrades. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckrider Posted September 30, 2016 Share #5 Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) from IIIa to IIIb would not really make any sense: only Rangefinder and view windows did come closer together an diopter control went from view window under rewind knop. Never saw such an upgrade... flash syncronisation changed Leica IIIa to IIIa syn, also IIIa upgrdes into IIIf using original chassis are known. Thomas conversion list: http://www.leicapages.org/html/L_FAQ.html Edited September 30, 2016 by duckrider Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted September 30, 2016 Share #6 Posted September 30, 2016 ... also IIIa upgrdes into IIIf using original chassis are known. Thomas The one I have is a IIIf (Red Dial) Chassis, top plate, etc - but a IIIa serial number. It has been suggested possibly a repair that was lost or damaged at Leitz, so replaced but kept original serial number so customs would (correctly) see it as return shipping of a repair. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted September 30, 2016 Share #7 Posted September 30, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) ..... also IIIa upgrdes into IIIf using original chassis are known. Thomas conversion list: http://www.leicapages.org/html/L_FAQ.html while both upgrade tables on leicapages are correct the accompanying text is wrong/misleading. Upgrades were possible within each of 2 families: below SN 360.000 and above. Some IIIa and IIIb below 360.000 were produced after 1945. Reason for having two families of upgrades is stated correctly - longer chassis and almost none common subassembly. IIIf with Sn of an IIIa could only be result of replacement as TomB mentioned. Tables do not list any upgrade into IIIb, it was not officially offered. Upgrade IIIb into IIIb sync was listed in Leica pamphlets as possible however not within price table and until now I have not seen any. As to IIIb from mickjazz listed as IIIa - I suppose wrong entry within SN tables and possibly as well Leica delivery records. @mickjazz - could you pls post SN of your Leica? My IIIb with SN 357109 is listed as well as IIIa however it is undoubtly original IIIb, with the interesting history though (described in Viewfinder 49-2 and VIDOM 110) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share #8 Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) My original post was in error primarily from lack of views on the camera in question. I only saw the twin combined windows. In fact this camera 333xxx is a iiic stepper. I have been told there are basically 3 possible explanations for the anomaly: 1) this presumably 1939 iiia was so badly damaged or ? That Leitz a few months or years later provided the owner with a iiic AND used the old sn to avoid excise taxes. A 'swap' Possible but this would have been during the war and Leitz likely had other priorities than satisfying some local user and duties? 2) Leitz screwed up the sn on the iiic and accidentally/deliberately used an old unused iiia sn. Definite possibility I guess but Leitz was a careful company regarding data; 3) camera is an early preproduction iiic that got out of the factory maybe a few months early before the sn number blocks were set. They had the prototypes as early as 34. Tooling for the iiic had to be ready in early 39 at the latest. Iii and iiia production ended in 39 - ok a handful of iiia assigned numbers post 39. But they had to have been making the iiic's in 39 even if the first official one was 1940. Just in time production was 50 years away. Some would have field checked for durability etc. Select users given the chance to test it. Not a prototype but a test model. Needs a number so use a iiia number just for cover. Car companys test their new models with old model skins. Couple other things. Came with a no number 5cm elmar, mtr and 'Germany'; black no logo case; bottom plate has 'auf/zu' & 'Germany'. Somebody here has maybe seen a plate like this but I haven't and I've seen a lot of steppers No 'Germany' on top plate. I own it. Edited October 7, 2016 by mickjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 7, 2016 Share #9 Posted October 7, 2016 The IIIc 'stepper' had a wider body and top plate, so it looks like it was an earlier serial number being used rather than an upgrade. A photo or two would help. There was a lot of overlap of serial numbers during the war period. IIIas were produced as late as 1948-50 with 'prewar' SNs beginning with 35. The first production IIIc 'steppers' had SNs beginning with 36. A lot of later production of pre-IIIc models had earlier SNs even though they were produced much later in the 1940s. The impression that Leica were absolutely sequential and chronological with their SNs seems to be wrong, particularly around wartime. Just a thought. Could your IIIc be a pre-production example of some kind? I'll leave it to more knowledgeable people to comment on that aspect. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 7, 2016 Share #10 Posted October 7, 2016 IIIc prototype was presented in 1934 (Wagner, Vidom Nr.65) with SN 335006. Kamera had a backdoor . At the time of publication (1996) it was in possession of Leica Museum. Please post photos of this intryguing camera! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 8, 2016 Share #11 Posted October 8, 2016 similarly to other Leica models as well the "stepper" IIIc (IIIc Type 1) had some modification introduced during the production time. Detailed photos allow to determine when the particular upgrade/convertion might have been performed. In Viewfinder 49-2 (for non LHSA members this article may be found as well here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/234825-focal-point/ link in the last posting) Jim Lager is presenting 2 photos of stepper 352922 - SN as well below the regular SN range. Few details which could been seen there lead me to conclusions: - 352922 is result of upgrade/conversion/swap and not comming from the regular production - it is not preproduction nor prototype - conversion happened not earlier than mid 1941 (and most probably not later than 1946) @mickjazz: photos of engravings on the top cover, of the bottom plate of the camera but mainly detailed photos of interior could allow me to set the time more precisely. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 10, 2016 Share #12 Posted October 10, 2016 some more info about history of IIIc. In his book "Prototype Leica" (publication of Leica Historica Germany) Lars Netopil is showing both known prototypes: - unnumbered, not complete, from September 1934 - top cover deviates significantly from production - SN 335006, complete with top cover like in ´production IIIc. This camera has been completed in October 1934 Both cameras have backdoor - it has been dropped in production and introduced with M3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share #13 Posted October 13, 2016 Attached are images of top and bottom plates. The engraving is rather well done but not Leitz style. The plate shows no sign that a previous number was removed. It appears to have been engraved on a new top plate. Speed dial and diopter are 2nd version iiic. Lower plate with auf/zu and Germany I've never seen. No back door. Inside ordinary. Perhaps put together in a chop shop from Leitz parts after the war. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/265063-leica-iiia-upgrade-to-iiib/?do=findComment&comment=3127975'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 13, 2016 Share #14 Posted October 13, 2016 (edited) This looks like a IIIc model that was created out of parts in the factory probably in the mid to late 1940s. The slow speed dial has the ball stop which was not on early 'stepper' IIIcs. I have one 'stepper' without and two with the ball stop. The diopter lever does not have the little knob on top like my 3 'steppers'. The lever with no knob appears on later 'non stepper' IIIc models. Finally the engraving looks a bit amateurish or maybe it was done in a hurry, especially the line of numbers, for the serial number, which is not straight. To me this looks like a 'special' perhaps done at the request of a Leitz employee or a repair that was done in a hurry in the Leica factory. It looks to me that a quick engraving was done on a blank top plate and that a previously unallocated number was used. This is definitely not a prototype because of the number of later parts used. I have never seen 'Germany' engraved on a bottom plate before. William Edited October 13, 2016 by willeica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share #15 Posted October 13, 2016 William agree completely. The engraved numbers 3 and 4 for example are not standard Leitz engraving. And later speed dial. Not a prototype. I wonder if the real id is marked or engraved inside. Id take off the shell but I already told the seller I'm returning it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 13, 2016 Share #16 Posted October 13, 2016 Probably better not to take off the covering at the bottom to see if there is a number inside, if you are going to return the item. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 14, 2016 Share #17 Posted October 14, 2016 Camera is interesting, indeed. Similar "Germany" engraving may befound occasionaly on export versions of earlier black cameras, engraved either on viewer (IA/IC) or accessory shoe, see below. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It may be regularly found on early IIIC type 2 (however not on cameras from the first series - 400xxx), on the top plate. It would be interesting to see details under the top plate, what is this camera based on - type 1 or 2. Both types differ significantly inside. There is however one difference which may be seen without dismanteling the camera - in type 1 the clockwork (for longer speeds) is not covered, it may be seen like in IIIa, while in type 2 buffles have one element more which covers the clockwork. As for engraving - it looks to me like they are stamped, not engraved. For sure not from Leitz. Some conversions and repairs have been done outside of Leitz however using original parts. Below you may see such example. In reality this was IA with SN 18180, original SN engraved under rangefinder. Upgrade to II was rather early one (around 1932) and not done by Leitz. SN engraving is as well not from Leitz. Why such strange SN has been engraved is a mystery. All Leica related engravings have been milled, I believe this could have happened shortly after WWII. Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It may be regularly found on early IIIC type 2 (however not on cameras from the first series - 400xxx), on the top plate. It would be interesting to see details under the top plate, what is this camera based on - type 1 or 2. Both types differ significantly inside. There is however one difference which may be seen without dismanteling the camera - in type 1 the clockwork (for longer speeds) is not covered, it may be seen like in IIIa, while in type 2 buffles have one element more which covers the clockwork. As for engraving - it looks to me like they are stamped, not engraved. For sure not from Leitz. Some conversions and repairs have been done outside of Leitz however using original parts. Below you may see such example. In reality this was IA with SN 18180, original SN engraved under rangefinder. Upgrade to II was rather early one (around 1932) and not done by Leitz. SN engraving is as well not from Leitz. Why such strange SN has been engraved is a mystery. All Leica related engravings have been milled, I believe this could have happened shortly after WWII. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/265063-leica-iiia-upgrade-to-iiib/?do=findComment&comment=3128482'>More sharing options...
Antonio Madureira Posted October 14, 2016 Share #18 Posted October 14, 2016 Please see serial nº in this IIIC Leica: http://www.dagcamera.com/store/p194/Leica_lllc_Wartime_Camera_w%2Funusual_Serial_%23.html Regards António 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 14, 2016 Share #19 Posted October 14, 2016 It has the earlier diopter lever with a knob. Otherwise it is similar to the the other one, apart from the engraving (or stamping) which is of a higher standard. The interesting bit is, of course, the serial number which is similar to the other one. I still think that this points to some form of re-cycling of unused serial numbers at the Leica factory due to 'one offs' ( for employees?) or repairs. I wonder how many 333xxx SN IIIcs are out there. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share #20 Posted October 19, 2016 Antonio The 333xxx engraving looks very similar to that on the camera that began this thread. Or stamping. It is curious and one has to wonder as William pointed out: how many of the 333xxx iiic's are out there? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.