Leica M 240 Titanium questions

[leicapages]

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Now that the Leica M 240 Titanium has been announced shortly before Photokina, I was wondering how well it optically fits with the previous Titanium or "Titanisiert" M cameras:

 

- the M6 Ti and M6 TTL Ti were not made of solid Titanium but rather Titanium covered ("Titanisiert") and so were the matching lenses of the time.

- the M7 Ti was the first one made of solid Titanium, together with the 3 lenses that were produced and offered with it.

- the M9 Ti followed the example of the M7 Ti and was made of solid Titanium, together with the accompanying Summilux 35mm lens.

- the M 240 Ti seems to follow the example of the M7 Ti and M9 Ti as far as the body is concerned, but the lenses are only Titanium covered ("Titanisiert") if I understand it correctly.

 

The point of all this is the color cast: the M6 Ti and M6 TTL Ti with their lenses are of a more yellow cast than the actual solid Titanium offerings, which are dimmer. To the point that matching them mechanically works of course, but is just plain ugly. One can, however, easily and esthetically interchange lenses between the M7 Ti and M9 Ti.

 

How would that be for the M 240 Ti lenses? Has anyone seen them already? Do they color-wise look like the solid Titanium lenses of the M7 Ti and M9 Ti?

 

Thanks if anyone can clarify this.

Pascal

 

[colonel]

"With the Leica M-P ‘TITANIUM’ Set, the top plate, base plate and control elements of the camera are precision machined from solid titanium. This resilient, hard-wearing material reinforces the robust nature of the M camera and makes it approximately 90 grams lighter than the standard production model"

 

"The anodised titanium finish of the aluminium lenses is perfectly matched to the camera,"

 

http://leicarumors.com/2016/09/14/leica-m-p-titanium-set-announced.aspx/

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[Olsen]

Øh, - titanium can not be 'machined'.  Only cast. 

 

[pico]

Øh, - titanium can not be 'machined'.  Only cast. 

 

Are you sure? There are several grades of commercial Ti, and many alloys that are all as machinable as stainless steel. Leica does not identify which Ti they use, but it is certainly machinable. I suspect they choose a cost-effective Titanium alloy for prestige as it is certainly not necessary to the camera's construction.

[Olsen]

The more Ti you add - the less 'machinable' it gets.  The classical Ti application was the American spy plane SR-71.  Screws and bolts had to be casted....  Machination of Ti would make it mechanically unreliably brittle. 

 

[jdlaing]

2016 now. Titanium alloys are machined all the time.

[Olsen]

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That could well be, but then it is not 'really' Ti....   The property of a mineral do not change with 'more modern times'.  The lack of machinability is still a limit to the use of Ti.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Olsen

[leicapages]

"The anodised titanium finish of the aluminium lenses is perfectly matched to the camera,"

 

http://leicarumors.com/2016/09/14/leica-m-p-titanium-set-announced.aspx/

Yes, I read that as well. My question was actually not whether the lenses of the latest set match the camera body as this is a given. The question rather is: how does the color cast of the latest M 240 Ti and its lenses compare to the previous versions?

 

Thanks.

[bencoyote]

Øh, - titanium can not be 'machined'.  Only cast. 

 

That is entirely not true.

 

There are many companies which make Titanium machining tools. For example: https://www.makino.com/machining-process/titanium-machining-process is literally the first hit on google.

 

This may have been true back in the 60's or some time like that but Titanium machining is fairly commonplace now. The Soviets mastered it back in the late 70's IIRC but kept advances like EDM behind the Iron Curtain until it fell. After that the technology has advanced considerably spread all around the world making machined Titanium parts more expensive than other softer metals but readily available never the less. 

[jdlaing]

Yes, I read that as well. My question was actually not whether the lenses of the latest set match the camera body as this is a given. The question rather is: how does the color cast of the latest M 240 Ti and its lenses compare to the previous versions?

Thanks.

From what I could tell, after handling a few of the older lenses, the new ones are brighter or more silver and the older ones more gray in color.

[pico]

The more Ti you add - the less 'machinable' it gets.  The classical Ti application was the American spy plane SR-71.  Screws and bolts had to be casted....  Machination of Ti would make it mechanically unreliably brittle. 

 

You can bet, and I will bet a fortune that Leica does not use 'pure' (unobtainable) titanium, but uses a reasonable, machinable alloy for the reason I stated. I rather doubt your knowledge of the SR-71's skin is better than mine.

 

Making a Leica body is not rocket-science.

.

Edited September 27, 2016 by pico

[Olsen]

Machinability is only one issue.  The way around is 'coating'.  We here in Norway are 'big' on several 'coating' products that we make from our titanium mines.  Like titanium dioxide and Titanium Nitride etc.

​Price is another.  Per ton aluminium is at $ 1.775 per ton.  Up from 300 to 500 $ ton for 'steel from China'.  While Titanium is at almost 4.000 $ per ton.

[4X5B&W]

Titanium Nitrite is one of the toughest coatings known to man. 

 

It is used extensively in hostile environments that required extreme performance.

You can see this in gold coloured cutting tools. It is a coating applied under a vacuum coating process and is infinitely higher performing than Titanium Metal.

 

So people who want performance whether toughness, durability or corrosion resistance, should be looking at Titanium Nitrite coated products.

 

If someone is looking for the mechanical properties of Titanium metal, that is for different applications.

 

The M6 Titanium, is Titanium Nitrite coated, and has fabulous wear characteristics. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by 4X5B&W

[jdlaing]

Nitride.

[4X5B&W]

Nitride.

 

 

Actually worked in an industry (space hardware) where the preferred  process is Titanium Nitrite vs Nitride, some people (marketing) use english differently to describe their product.

 

However the process used by Leica on the M6 Titanium was the same as used on aerospace hardware (vacuum coating) done only by very specialized researchers......fabulous process.

 

Nitriding is typically a process for heat treatment hardening not a coating, and not was used by Leica on the M6 Titanium.

 

Again what companies call their product vs the actual process can sometimes be tied more to advertising rather than technique.....can be tricky.

Edited October 11, 2016 by 4X5B&W

[Olsen]

I don't want to fly a aircraft with 'machined Titanium' parts.  The machining is difficult to control and the risk that the material gets brittle is high.  I have a Swiss led torch (Suprabeam Q3C) which also claim in the instruction manual is 'machined titanium'.  But at a closer look; It's coated.