Decisions, Decisions - Upgrade to an M or stay V-Lux3 / X1/ XVario?

[jhluxton]

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After many years of hankering after an M I find myself in the position to afford to buy one.

 

The current bundle offers on the M typ 262 are particularly attractive - but will this substantial outlay offer me significantly more than what I can achieve with my present V-Lux 3, X1 or X-Vario?

 

Obviously I wouldn't be replacing the V-Lux 3 as I need the zoom for ship photography. The X1 is great as an easy carry compact. It would likely be the X-Vario which an M would replace or at least augment.

 

Though I am very pleased with with my current line up of cameras which are all used regularly - I just have to get myself clear in my mind if I should make the jump up to an M or wait and see what new other camera might appear from Leica - rumours of a new X appear to be doing the rounds and I like the X1 and XV a lot.

 

I have used a Leica rangefinder before back in the 1980s  picked up a very nice almost mint screw Leica IIIf with 5cm and 9cm lenses which I used a bit and later sold to buy some more Contax gear which comprised my main outfit at  the time. With hindsight I wish I hadn't sold this classic, but then we all do daft things!

 

I recall finding the focusing a bit fiddly with the IIIf - but presume the modern Ms are much easier to use.

 

Further muddying my decision making is whether perhaps I should stick with the current line up of Leicas using the X-Vario for colour work and buying a Monochrom with 35mm lens. 

 

When I am out shooting I quite often have the X-Vario set for colour and the X1 set to mono. 

 

I imagine there must be a few people out there who have pondered making the final step up to an M - would be interested to hear oppinions.

 

Thanks

 

John

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[jaapv]

Well, the X1 and XVario are pretty good cameras, but still you can expect the M to have the edge in IQ and it will be a considerable step up from your VLux.

Hundreds of lenses to choose from, a darn good sensor and excellent rangefinder, what is there not to like?

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[dpitt]

Don't worry about focussing the M if you could manage with the III F.

Any M from the M3 to the digital Ms will feel totally different in comparison with its bright and large VF.

 

Actually I made the same decision as you face now, but the other way around. Not sure if my advise will be applicable to your needs, but let me explain….

 

After my Digilux 2, I moved to a second hand M8 and later an extra M9. The M8 was very good and even more compact in size compared the D2. The D2 was left in the closet on most occasions other than for nostalgic reasons or for ‘lazy’ trips where I prefer zoom and auto focus comfort. 

 

The M9 is even better in the IQ department and offers more flexibility with a one lens setup, because I can crop the 18MP more (digital zoom) than the 10MP from the M8. I have a full range of lenses, but hate changing lenses out in the open. So I prefer taking only one lens with me at any given time. It presents a challenge sometimes, but works better for me… Less is more…

 

Now, since the M8, I have been looking for a ‘worthy’ light compact to have with me everywhere I go. The M8 or M9 feel too heavy and big to take everywhere and all the time. I tried several options based on APS-C or micro 4/3 format sensors. Some of them with Leica M lenses mounted with an adapter, but I always came back to the M as my main camera.

 

My conclusion at this point is that:

1. Once you have the M8 or M9 it is hard to accept the IQ of any of those solutions. Even most FF full blown DSLR systems disappoint in that department for my eyes, so that is not a surprise. In the end I happily use an alternative to the M in the areas where the M is not designed for, but try to take it with me for all the jobs where it would be good at. Macro and long tele work are the area’s I sometimes want to shoot that are out of range for the M. In that case I follow the advise of Ansel Adams and take the largest camera I can carry

 

2. The IQ of the M is not even the main reason I like it so much. It is even harder to replace the shooting experience of the M rangefinder. I enjoy using it so much, even compared to other rangefinders… IMO there is not even an other system in production now that plays in the same league.

 

3. Any compact camera needs to come up with a compelling argument in size and weight to be an alternative. The M9 with a Elmar 50mm F3.5 mounted weighs around 700g and fits in a raincoat pocket. So 500g is the upper limit for weight that makes sense and will give me 200 - 400g advantage depending on the lens I choose to fit on the M.

In size, the back to front dimension in collapsed state should be about 5-7cm maximum to make it fit a raincoat pocket.

 

Now, I tried several options  from Panasonic, Olympus, Fujifilm, Leica…. All of them sort of complied more or less to point 3. I found that it hard to find one that would not make me regret that I did not have the M9 with me. The shooting experience was always worse than the M, certainly in bright sunlight. When I watch the result in PP, most of them would not give anything close to what I get from the M8.

The best one until now is the Leica X2. I often use it with an Olympus VF2, because I hate using the LCD in handheld situations. The X2 is so close in IQ that sometimes I can not see if it was the M or not based on the final resulting image.

So, hang on to your X1. I think it is a keeper…

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by dpitt

[jaapv]

To continue my train of thought:

Seeing the use you put your cameras to, I think you would be far better off to replace your V-Lux 3 by a V-Lux 4. That 1" 20 MP sensor really is considerably superior to the 12 MP one you are using now. Buy a Q for your regular shooting, and you will have made a quantum leap. The Q is a joy to use, also compared to an M.

You may  decide to keep the X-Vario, it may come in handy from time to time as walkabout camera and it can give excellent output as well.

[euston]

After many years of hankering after an M I find myself in the position to afford to buy one.

 

 

You’re already hooked. Go with the flow!

 

But don’t give up the X Vario! Not ever!

[brill64]

+1 for the x-vario. it's a great little camera.

[thighslapper]

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The XV punches well above its weight with the only drawback being the slow AF...... keep it for now.

 

I think you will find the Monochrom a bit limiting.......

 

The Q is by my reckoning Leicas best camera in terms of image quality/ergonomics/portability ...... and you could easily live with that as an M substitute and use your feet instead of multiple focal length lenses. You only have to look at the Q image thread to realise there are few limits in use with this camera .....

 

...... and the issue you have to accept is that with an M you WILL end up wanting and buying more lenses ..... whatever you think now..... and you will need deep pockets unless you have the resolve of a monk to forgo additional glass. 

 

If I was you and was convinced I had to give it a go I would get a good used M240 ...... there are plenty about with low usage and often 'as new' ..... and the same with lenses.

 

Whatever happens you could sell on at a small loss if it proves to be a mistake ...... and if not, I would keep the M240 till the next M appears and trade up ...... which has to be within the next year unless something very odd is going on at Leica HQ 

 

Having said all that I have liquidated a lot of Leica gear and now use the SL 95% of the time ...... but that's another story ....

Edited September 26, 2016 by thighslapper

[colonel]

I agree with some of the above, nice to retain 1 AF camera for when you need it. The XV does deliver lovely photos, buts its AF is significantly behind even the slowest on the market now. note that some second hand T + 18-56mm are quite reasonable. This would be a good upgrade for the XV

 

In terms of a M262, its a different league. First of all AF is must faster then the XV The IQ, bokeh available and sharpness is also higher depending on lens. And of course its interchangeable. Its quite another beast though. With MF pre-focus tends to be a bigger tool then with AF, however if I remember I used the XV mostly on pre-focus for street ...

[tom0511]

The user interface of the M is a joy for me to use. Once you are used to the rangefinder the simplicity of the camera is a big advantage. Also, compared to your other cameras you have an optical viewfinder in the M.

If you like the 35-50mm range, and if your are looking for a simple, direct way of photography with an analog feel (I mean the UI not the IQ) and if you can afford, I would say go for it.

 

Which model...I am a long time M user and like some others I find the M240 a tad too heavy. Not that I have a problem to carry it around, but not as compfortable to hold as older Leica M.

Thats why I also decided to exchange my M 240 vs a M262, which should feel closer to my Film M and the M9 which I am sure I will enjoy.

Also, if you dont plan to use video, and if you dont plan to shoot a lot UWA or longer focal lengths (where live view would be benefitial) I think the 262 is the most "puristic" difital camera you can get. Besides the MD version maybe, but I dont want to miss the display to be able to check exposure in tricky light situations.

Like you I also still own a x1 which I will keep since its the best pockable camera I ever found.

[jaapv]

I noticed that there is a "beginner set" available,  262, sf40 flash and Summarit 2.4/50 @ 5500 Euro. That is over 1700 Euro off, not to be sneezed at.

[jhluxton]

Thank you everyone for all the thoughts on which way to go.

 

As for the Q my concern is that though I use 28mm on the X-Vario at times I am concerned about distortion at such a wide angle and I understand that there is also some distortion with the Q using the standard lens setting though it is retrievable using Lightroom if you shoot in RAW?

 

I prefer JPG as it is quicker and easier to work with, less memory hungry on the cards and on the several back up drives I save my image files to. I would feel happier about a Q if the lens was 35mm with digital crop zoom options of 50 and 70.

 

I am aware of the beginner sets which here in the UK are selling for £4,900 and £6,000 depending on which lens option is chosen, these do appear good VFM and of course the bundled flash can be used with current existing cameras which would be a bonus, though I wish a system bag wasn't included as I feel I would be paying for something I don't need as I have three Billinghams of differing sizes chosen depending on what I need to carry!  

 

Generally I tend to use the XV for non-moving or fairly slow moving subjects - branch line / heritage railways  and static subjects and so speed of auto focus isn't really an issue - I have had the odd missed shot but now tend to set a manual pre focus where I suspect auto focus might be a problem.   

 

I don't need video - during the past year I have shot two video files one with the V-Lux 3 and the other with the XV - thus video capability on a future purchase would not be the deciding factor.

 

John

[tom0511]

Thank you everyone for all the thoughts on which way to go.

 

As for the Q my concern is that though I use 28mm on the X-Vario at times I am concerned about distortion at such a wide angle and I understand that there is also some distortion with the Q using the standard lens setting though it is retrievable using Lightroom if you shoot in RAW?

 

I prefer JPG as it is quicker and easier to work with, less memory hungry on the cards and on the several back up drives I save my image files to. I would feel happier about a Q if the lens was 35mm with digital crop zoom options of 50 and 70.

 

I am aware of the beginner sets which here in the UK are selling for £4,900 and £6,000 depending on which lens option is chosen, these do appear good VFM and of course the bundled flash can be used with current existing cameras which would be a bonus, though I wish a system bag wasn't included as I feel I would be paying for something I don't need as I have three Billinghams of differing sizes chosen depending on what I need to carry!  

 

Generally I tend to use the XV for non-moving or fairly slow moving subjects - branch line / heritage railways  and static subjects and so speed of auto focus isn't really an issue - I have had the odd missed shot but now tend to set a manual pre focus where I suspect auto focus might be a problem.   

 

I don't need video - during the past year I have shot two video files one with the V-Lux 3 and the other with the XV - thus video capability on a future purchase would not be the deciding factor.

 

John

 

just get it

[marchyman]

 

As for the Q my concern is that though I use 28mm on the X-Vario at times I am concerned about distortion at such a wide angle and I understand that there is also some distortion with the Q using the standard lens setting though it is retrievable using Lightroom if you shoot in RAW?

 

 

I can understand why you think that given what has been written, but it is incorrect.

 

The Q lens design includes some software correction.   The correction is automatic -- there is nothing you can do to turn it on/off.  It's baked into every jpeg the camera produces.   If you shoot raw software such as Lightroom also bakes in the corrections -- you can't turn it off.

 

There are other raw developers that do not use the corrections or allow you to turn the corrections off.   I do not understand why anyone would want to do that -- the corrections are part of the camera/lens design -- but some people do.   Unless you are one of those people or you have a strong desire to use one of those raw developers that don't support the built in corrections their existence is a non-issue.

 

I am quite happy with my Q.  I'm also happy with my M and a 75mm lens.

Edited September 26, 2016 by marchyman

[jhluxton]

I can understand why you think that given what has been written, but it is incorrect.

 

The Q lens design includes some software correction.   The correction is automatic -- there is nothing you can do to turn it on/off.  It's baked into every jpeg the camera produces.   If you shoot raw software such as Lightroom also bakes in the corrections -- you can't turn it off.

 

There are other raw developers that do not use the corrections or allow you to turn the corrections off.   I do not understand why anyone would want to do that -- the corrections are part of the camera/lens design -- but some people do.   Unless you are one of those people or you have a strong desire to use one of those raw developers that don't support the built in corrections their existence is a non-issue.

 

I am quite happy with my Q.  I'm also happy with my M and a 75mm lens.

 

Thanks for clarifying the issue on the Q lens. 

[jhluxton]

Well I finally decided and headed over to LeicaStore Manchester this morning. Unfortunately the M262 bundles had all gone and there was a waiting list. They phoned up but it wasn't going to be anytime soon.

 

Anyway after considering a few options and trading in an old and long unused Digilux 3 came away with an M262 with 35mm f2 Summicron and neoprene case. Okay I only have one lens but a better one than in the bundle, didn't need a system case as I already have two Billinghams.

 

No flash but then I don't use flash much either.

 

So didn't quite get what I planned but now looking forward to the weekend to have start taking photos!

 

John

Edited October 5, 2016 by jhluxton

[albertknappmd]

Would buy the M package and sell back the other cameras as you will find yourself using your M all the time...

Albert     

[jhluxton]

Would buy the M package and sell back the other cameras as you will find yourself using your M all the time...

Albert     

 

I might part company with the X next or X-V to part fund a 90mm - but no rash decisions.

 

I will play around with the M over the winter and see what happens in the spring.

 

I can't see the M replacing the V-Lux 3 though as that is essential for ship photography.

 

John