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Musings from an S carpetbagger


Deliberate1

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After less looking than I expected and expending less patience than I held in reserve, I purchased a mint 35mm on Ebay for $2700. Not only was it some $4k less than new, it was about $1k less than the new 50mm Summilux I bought four years ago for my M9. This purchase followed on the heels of my certified 006 I got 10 months ago for $6500 from a Leica store. 

I am sure that my purchases are not the subject of conversation in Wetzlar boardrooms. But perhaps they should be.

Every used body and every lens was bought new by someone who came to the conclusion that the product was worth the price of admission. Perhaps that person was not moved by the price because it was company money, Or perhaps the idea of secondary value was of no concern because it was a forever purchase. But those must constitute a minority of sales given our collective penchant to flip gear with every new iteration or leap-frogging until the spirit moves.

I have not been a Leica person long enough to remember those days, as I have read, when some bodies and especially lenses could be purchased with the confidence that at best, the little gems would increase in value, especially if demand exceeded supply. And at worst, you could get your money out.

As for me, I feel a bit of a carpetbagger, stepping in only with the expectation that much of the intolerable depreciation preceded my ownership. And that even if the body sheds half its $6500 value, I will have gotten my money's worth in pleasure. Indeed, I am so smitten with this camera, I see this as the beginning of a a long term relationship. But then, I have never sold any of my cameras - separation anxiety.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall in the halls of Wetzlar as they contemplate the future of the system that we own in common, with varying degrees of investment. Agenda item one: Brand battery from excoriating reports on this site from the heart-broken to the righteously pissed off over failed motors, diseased sensors and a constricted lens quiver. Item two: Market poaching from Pentax (at a fraction of the price) and new offerings from Hasselblad (at a larger fraction of the price) and Fuji. Item three: Lunch. Item four: The M is still iconic and unique and can trade on that for the foreseeable future. The SL is new and shiny and a must-have for the must-haves. 

Ultimately, Item five: What is the next step in the S bloodline - evolutionary or revolutionary, and at what price point. And can Leica afford to release another camera with flaws that cannot, with a straight face, be called exceptions to the rule.

Meeting Summary: What does Leica have to do to produce a new S camera that people will be willing to buy at what will undoubtedly be at a premium price point - one that will enhance the Leica brand, and not dilute it with another slow bleed and bucket of apologies.

Your thoughts?

David

 

 

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Nice get on the 35mm.  The M system is regarded as jewelry, justifiably or not it's the perception that matters.  I couldn't be happier this situation exists, it means there are beautiful examples of used equipment available.  The S is also sold to the well healed and used sparingly prior to trade-in.

 

Iirc the non-CS lenses were sold with guaranteed trade in value when CS became available, this would result in Leica having stock of used S lenses competing with new.  In addition the CS version could disproportionately lower the value of non-CS.  

 

Whatever the reason, the used values in S lenses is so tempting I have added them to my S2 and S-E bodies at a rate twice my original intention of one per year.  

 

Regarding Wetzlar meetings, add to the mix the Nikon D810 and Canon 5DS, regarded by many the equivalent or better than S bodies based on the one metric, megapixels.    The idea of lenses playing a significant roll in the imaging chain, Leica's stellar advantage, is not a common view or perception.          

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Regarding Wetzlar meetings, add to the mix the Nikon D810 and Canon 5DS, regarded by many the equivalent or better than S bodies based on the one metric, megapixels.    The idea of lenses playing a significant roll in the imaging chain, Leica's stellar advantage, is not a common view or perception.          

 

I disagree regarding lenses....a well known issue, discussed ad nauseam.

 

And a bigger S sensor provides a clear distinction.  Tonality, for one.

 

Plus, not all MP translate the same...as evidenced by the same basic Sony sensor in various MF cameras.  Or consider the lowly MP of the M8.....issues relating to AA filters, IR filtration, internal camera processing, etc, matter.

 

But, yes, MP is the thing lately....along with a bazillion ISO.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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I disagree regarding lenses....a well known issue, discussed ad nauseam.

 

And a bigger S sensor provides a clear distinction.  Tonality, for one.

 

Plus, not all MP translate the same...as evidenced by the same basic Sony sensor in various MF cameras.  Or consider the lowly MP of the M8.....issues relating to AA filters, IR filtration, internal camera processing, etc, matter.

 

But, yes, MP is the thing lately....along with a bazillion ISO.

 

Jeff

Hi Jeff, 

 

Not sure what was meant with your first sentence regarding lenses, can you elaborate,  I would like to hear your thoughts.  

 

Agree with your agreement:-), I should add that my post refers to the greater photographic community, the Leica community herein is rather exceptional.  

 

Bazillion ISO  :)

Edited by darylgo
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Hi Jeff, 

 

Not sure what was meant with your first sentence regarding lenses, can you elaborate,  I would like to hear your thoughts.  

 

Agree with your agreement:-), I should add that my post refers to the greater photographic community, the Leica community herein is rather exceptional.  

 

Bazillion ISO  :)

I suppose the lenses were mentioned because of the AF, which indeed can be seen as a disadvantage. The rendering of all the S lenses I have seen so far is simply superb. 

 

The 50mm Summilux Asph is a truly great lens .... having the 70mm on my S006 makes me at least as happy ..... + I can keep my 35mm lux on the M9

 

I funded the S006 + 70mm combo by selling my M240 + 50 Summilux Asph + 1000€ ... which for me was absolutely worth it.

 

 

Back to topic. I understand your thoughts about the camera.  The S system is in a very difficult spot price and output wise. Apparently 37 MP are not enough for a lot of pros and bokeh rendering + sharpness wide open is not necessary with studio lighting. The price is very much the same as other MF offerings though nothing is yet really comparable. 

 

Now we have the X1D and Fuji coming out with smaller, lighter offerings which makes the product even more awkward. Suddenly the size and weight does not favor Leica anymore ... which has always been a selling point of Leicas in general. 

 

We do have absolutely wonderful image quality in a weather sealed relatively small-ish body which is still heavy though. You get a lot more usability out of the Canon 5DSR and even the A7RII with more megapixels at lower cost ... and we're getting a lot more MP with bigger bodies at a similar price range.

 

 

The S does certainly not hold the value as much as the M does ..   but I think that's due to the pro - nature of the product... similar price drops between new and used lenses can be found with Hasselblad as well.... It's just a very different market that semi pros or hobbyists are now just getting into .. because used products are getting more affordable.

Edited by diddus
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I think if a new S came out with a larger sensor that kept the 6 micron pixel pitch (inevitably with accompanying mp increase) Leica would regain a good foothold in the MF range. Mirrorless might be a plus - one step above an SL. However, I am afraid the resulting camera body would be EVF and not certain I could make the adjustment. But then I've not looked through an SL and my only previous experience is with an NEX 7 which should have been looked upon as a test mule, imo.

 

But I am enjoying just shooting the S and if they never made another camera (and this one stayed reliable) I'm ok with that. I feel experimentation with technique is far more rewarding than acquiring the next new best thing.

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The Fuji GFX appeals to me, mostly for its portability. Using Otus lenses on it will be interesting, given their larger coverage and its native multi-crop sensor.

 

However, having tried various combinations of non Leica lenses and Sony sensors, I still prefer Leica systems aesthetically, regardless of technical metrics. I suspect this will hold true even when the GFX arrives, if it indeed uses the same Sony sensor as is rumored.

 

The S market is so small that surpluses and gluts can happen easily. There's a glut in the market right now--hence the appearance of used 007 bodies, and the sale of a mint S-E last week from a reputable dealer on Ebay for $4k.

 

I bought some of my S lenses during another glut, right before the S 007 came out. If I do end up selling my S kit, I think I'll come out okay on the lenses with some patience, but I know I'll take a big hit on the S 007 body. I accept it and will make the money back otherwise.

Edited by alan.y
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Not sure what was meant with your first sentence regarding lenses, can you elaborate,  I would like to hear your thoughts.  

 

 

 

I simply meant that the notion that lenses can play a significant role in the imaging chain is still a common one.  We only need to watch company after company introduce the next new magic lens.

 

Of course one could argue that companies and users are chasing specs that, in the end, mean little in the ability to create great pics/art....but that's probably been an issue since the beginning of photography.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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