Confirm Leica model - which Leica III is this?

[toanna]

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Yes, original... the bottom speaks clearly...  Personally, if I had it, would keep it as is because it's simply funny and someway tasty even if "borderline"...  ; but if you like to have an original III , a good restoration can be Worth, for the body... the Elmar is so nice with all that colors that I'd keep it as is... given also that anyway it does not match, in age, with the camera (Elmars of 1939 were marked "5cm", not "50mm" ... btw... can you find a s/n on it ?)

 

I like it too and it may have only a entertaining worth. I couldn't find serial number from Elmar which make me wondering. Where it should be?

 

How could a good restoration can be made?

[luigi bertolotti]

In fact there is an other screw mount Leica, I think it is Leica IIIc from 1950. First I thought it is in bad shape, but now I like ask from you what should I do with it?

Here are a few pictures (Should this be a new topic?)

This looks to be a IIIf... one of the first made, but the film reminder on the knob and the flash sync ring under the times' knob are undoubtly features of IIIf.

Or... could be a IIIc upgraded to IIIf : maybe the most probable hipotesis... even if there seem to be some "factory original  IIIf" within the batch of serial numbers to which your item belongs)

Edited September 22, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

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[luigi bertolotti]

... I couldn't find serial number from Elmar which make me wondering. Where it should be?

 

...

Let me think... supposing it's original.. it's a 50mm-marked, no infrared index... with "7 o'clock" infinity lock and locking catch with conical top... an item from 1932-34, I'd say... it could have (maybe) even a "5 digits s/n"... anyway, the number ought to be finely engraved onto the surface of the front black ring (the inner thin ring, not the surface with the "Elmar" writing.. see under) . It's a very little engraving, which typically can be well read only with an enlarging lens... but your Elmar has been clearly repainted and the operation could have "covered" the little engraving...

 

Areas where you could find it

 

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Edited September 22, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

[willeica]

 This is a IIIc from 1950, converted to a IIIf Black Dial. This was a common conversion at the time and would have been done by Leica. You should be able to get a replacement for the base plate. You will need to check the shutter. If you insert a business card at the back (where the film would usually go) you should be able to see it when you fire the shutter at most speeds. If speeds are off, it might need a clean, lubricate and adjust, commonly called a CLA.

 

William

[toanna]

Luigi, Thank you very much. Now It is very clear. 184103 and Summilux says it is from 1933.

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[luigi bertolotti]

Aha... so all ok also on lens' side... (happy to have "centered" the age )... a venerable original Elmar treated by an expert painter...nice job... frankly, I'd like to have it as is...

Edited September 22, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Everybody,

 

It would appear that the person who had this camera might have had or might have liked to have had a Nikon F.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited September 22, 2016 by Michael Geschlecht

[toanna]

Hello Everybody,

 

It would appear that the person who had this camera might have had or might have liked to have had a Nikon F.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

I was thinking same. Infact I have opened old dirty boxes and there is about 15 Nikon F bodies and Nikkor lenses. Aperture numbers look like Nikkor ai-s -lenses.

These cameras has been in old house and new owner found them from kichen and loft. Originally I bought these old dirty boxes because there was one 50mm M-Summilux from 1961 and a few M3 bodies. All other are nice suprises.

[wlaidlaw]

The OP's camera is a III from batch 21 comprising 200 model III's in 1939. Leica were really going gangbusters making cameras in 1939. I would not be surprised if this was their biggest ever production year. I would guess that the military in many countries foresaw WW2 and were stocking up on Leica's, being seen as the best answer for a military camera. The Contax was possibly viewed as too expensive, too complicated and fragile. By 1940, companies like R G Lewis in the UK were advertising for the public to hand in good quality cameras including Leica (see advert below). 

 

Some years ago I had a run in with a local auctioneers, who were advertising two vintage Leica's for sale. I went and looked at them during the pre-auction viewing and they were converted FED 2's. I showed the auctioneers some of the telling features, including the solid RF cam rather than a roller and the shutter release with a remote release recess in the middle. They still tried to palm them off as Leicas at the auction. I stood up and blew the whistle. 

 

Wilson

 

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Edited September 22, 2016 by wlaidlaw

[toanna]

Thank you Wilson for this very interesting historical point of view.

It makes me wondering did Leica were concious of Germany's preparation to war. Or were high production numbers only a result of rising standard of living?

[wlaidlaw]

Thank you Wilson for this very interesting historical point of view.

It makes me wondering did Leica were concious of Germany's preparation to war. Or were high production numbers only a result of rising standard of living?

 

Leica were very conscious on the impending war and the likely fate of the jewish population in Germany. They managed to obtain overseas work permits for many of their jewish workers and their families during the period prior to the war and to neutral countries even during the course of the war. Ernst Leitz II was given a posthumous award for his work in saving jewish peoples in the lead up to war. I am always surprised by the simultaneous production of model III, IIIA and IIIB cameras in 1939. It just seems plain inefficient but they were obviously still selling plenty of model III's when the IIIA and IIIB had already come out. My guess is that a lot of the Model III's were going to the military, who are always very conservative in adopting new technology. My father had both a model IIIA and a IIF. He much preferred the older separated viewfinder - rangefinder arrangement of the IIIA to the side by side arrangement of the IIF, which was introduced with the IIIB model. Sadly I don't have his IIIA, as that was stolen from his car in Spain in 1967 but I do have his IIF, with its attached 5cm Summitar f2, bought new by him in Brooklyn during a business trip to the USA in 1953. It was mostly paid for by Cunard, after his older Leica model II was stolen from his luggage on a transatlantic voyage. 

 

Wilson

[toanna]

Thank you Wilson for sharing this memory.

I think there is some documentary of jewish Leica workers.

The Leica Freedom Train:

[Herr Barnack]

One way to determine if it is a counterfeit would be to send it in to Leica Wetzlar for a CLA.  If they refuse to work on it, you'll know it's an impostor.  It could probably use a CLA anyway, so it's not like you would be wasting your time and money.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Carlos Danger

[willeica]

One way to determine if it is a counterfeit would be to send it in to Leica Wetzlar for a CLA.  If they refuse to work on it, you'll know it's an impostor.  It could probably use a CLA anyway, so it's not like you would be wasting your time and money.

 

You would be very lucky to find a staff member at Wetzlar today who could deal with this issue. They would most likely call in an outside expert like Lars Netopil. I believe the camera is genuine, but it has been 'decorated' in an unusual fashion.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

You would be very lucky to find a staff member at Wetzlar today who could deal with this issue. They would most likely call in an outside expert like Lars Netopil. I believe the camera is genuine, but it has been 'decorated' in an unusual fashion.

 

William

 

I agree. I have never see a fake from a Russian with a roller RF cam. I have seen one model of genuine Leica faked to look like a different model or special edition. I have a Model II which has faked Luftwaffe markings, but as I bought it many years ago for $60, it doesn't matter. What sort of cams did the Japanese copies have, like Nikka, Leotax and Canon? Roller or flat cam? Of course there are all the Italian copies as well but generally, they are worth considerably more than a Leica, due to rarity, so it would be really stupid to fake a Leica from them. My Reid and Sigrist has a roller cam but that is a tool room and improved copy of a IIIB and again, is worth considerably more than a Leica IIIB. 

 

Wilson

[TomB_tx]

I agree. I have never see a fake from a Russian with a roller RF cam. I have seen one model of genuine Leica faked to look like a different model or special edition. I have a Model II which has faked Luftwaffe markings, but as I bought it many years ago for $60, it doesn't matter. What sort of cams did the Japanese copies have, like Nikka, Leotax and Canon? Roller or flat cam? Of course there are all the Italian copies as well but generally, they are worth considerably more than a Leica, due to rarity, so it would be really stupid to fake a Leica from them. My Reid and Sigrist has a roller cam but that is a tool room and improved copy of a IIIB and again, is worth considerably more than a Leica IIIB. 

Of the clones I've seen, only FED and Zorki do not have a roller cam. I have Nicca and Leotax which are "close" clones, with Nicca being the most faithful, and modified clones from Canon, Minolta, and Tanack, which all have significant differences so they look different. (The Tanack looks very similar to a IIIf, but has back-loading.)

Fed and Zorki copied the Leica II, so have no slow speeds.

[toanna]

Thank you for your point of view. I'm going to visit in Berlin in a few weeks. Do you think there is some place ehere I can show my present camera?

I live in Finland and I showed in local store but they thought it might be fake. But I think said they are not sure.

[toanna]

Sending to Wetzlar for CLA might be a good idea . I also think it is decorated and upgraded version of Leica iii.

Edited September 27, 2016 by toanna

[Anbaric]

There's nothing to suggest that III is a fake. All the little details are correct. I'd guess the flash sync on the front and the extra contact in the shoe, which are obviously third party mods, work together. You might have a little quiet fun taking this into vintage Leica dealers to test the knowledge of the staff - anyone who is misled by the freaky paint job and tells you it's a FED isn't looking carefully enough :-)

 

Here are some more things to look out for:

 

http://www.l39sm.co.uk/leica-reid-fakes.php

http://licm.org.uk/livingImage/Leica-fakes.html

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[toanna]

There's nothing to suggest that III is a fake. All the little details are correct. I'd guess the flash sync on the front and the extra contact in the shoe, which are obviously third party mods, work together. You might have a little quiet fun taking this into vintage Leica dealers to test the knowledge of the staff - anyone who is misled by the freaky paint job and tells you it's a FED isn't looking carefully enough :-)

 

Here are some more things to look out for:

 

http://www.l39sm.co.uk/leica-reid-fakes.php

http://licm.org.uk/livingImage/Leica-fakes.html

Thanks Anbaric for links. As you said it looks real according these web pages.