Jump to content

Also moved to the 006 - still some questions


Georges

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi guys,

 

Since last week, I am the proud owner of a new 006 (probably the last one available). :)

 

1. Is there a way to store all the DNG files on the CF card and the small JPEGs on a SD card?

2. Is it advisable to use DNG compression or should I better store it in full?

 

Thanks.

Edited by Georges
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The Typ 006 models are equal except for the colour.

 

To answer questions #2: the DNG compression is LOSSLESS meaning it will 100% be brought back in your RAW editor. Shooting uncompressed is stupid and costs more disk space, Leica put the function there because back in the day people complained they didn't want a compressed image (even though it's LOSSLESS, which clearly states how stupid the people requesting this were...) 

 

Bigger is not always BETTER, in this case: Smaller = Bigger in quality. Unlike on the M8/M9. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The Typ 006 models are equal except for the colour.

 

To answer questions #2: the DNG compression is LOSSLESS meaning it will 100% be brought back in your RAW editor. Shooting uncompressed is stupid and costs more disk space, Leica put the function there because back in the day people complained they didn't want a compressed image (even though it's LOSSLESS, which clearly states how stupid the people requesting this were...) 

 

Bigger is not always BETTER, in this case: Smaller = Bigger in quality. Unlike on the M8/M9. 

 

Implying people are stupid is probably not helpful....

 

Deciding on raw compression doesn't hurt any one else and the worst that can happen is that you're no worse off. I can think of plenty of stupid things people do. Deciding to shoot uncompressed raw is not one of them.

 

You have not considered that some raw processors, especially those built by individuals and those running on alternate operating systems, can't read compressed raw formats. Even the new Fuji XT2 compressed raw can't be read by Capture One. Uncompressed raw retains maximum compatibility. In addition, in some cases, raw converters are slower when dealing with compressed raw files than uncompressed files. What you're saving on a memory card you might be losing in importing and rendering speed in Lightroom. And we could discuss the possible implications of reading compressed files into the future vs uncompressed files which are based on a TIFF writing algorithm and therefore reasonably easy to decode.

 

Secondly, lossless (no need for shouting) raw means that there should be no visual difference to an uncompressed file. It doesn't mean there isn't a difference. 100% isn't brought back by your raw converter. A lot of it has to do with unused bits in the capture file etc. When Leica say lossless it's the same as a watch maker saying waterproof. It is and it isn't.

 

Thirdly, just because a company says there's no real world difference doesn't mean there is. Sony proved that. Leica made some claims about the M9 which I don't agree with after personal testing and the 006 is related to that camera in sensor type and age. Leica provide the option so there's nothing stupid about doing your own testing and deciding for yourself if you want to go that way.

 

If Leica provide the option it's not stupid to explore those options. Personally, because I find buying a large cards easy and hard drive space cheap, I shoot all my cameras in uncompressed raw, regardless of manufacturer. That way I don't have to worry whether the claims made by the manufacturer are true.

 

Gordon 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

The term "lossless" within the context of file compression is not subject to opinion or to scrutiny. It's a technical term which means that the the format guarantees that the original uncompressed data can be re-constituted from the compressed file. I can see no reason why someone would bother to write a program that can only do uncompressed images and no compressed ones. Even the TIFF format which you refer to supports a number of compression schemes. 

 

The compression algorithms used in digital images are well und publicly documented. They are not difficult to understand or to implement even for a programmer of little experience.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The term "lossless" within the context of file compression is not subject to opinion or to scrutiny. It's a technical term which means that the the format guarantees that the original uncompressed data can be re-constituted from the compressed file. I can see no reason why someone would bother to write a program that can only do uncompressed images and no compressed ones. Even the TIFF format which you refer to supports a number of compression schemes. 

 

The compression algorithms used in digital images are well und publicly documented. They are not difficult to understand or to implement even for a programmer of little experience.

 

Well as I already mentioned even mainstream programs like Capture One don't read the compressed raw files from all cameras that they support the uncompressed raw files from. This is a reality not speculation. Doesn't matter how easy it is to do if they just decide they're not supporting it.

 

As to the compression of the TIFF format. Not many programs will read those files, even the most common, LZW compression. Mac OS and Windows don't read LZW. Nor does Nik software or OnOne. Yet they all read uncompressed files just fine. This just goes to reinforce my position that compressed files aren't always as easy to read as uncompressed ones.

 

Gordon

Link to post
Share on other sites

I use Lightroom, Capture One, Photoshop and they all support Leica's compressed RAW formats in one way or another. If a RAW converter supports the .DNG file standard they should also support compressed .DNG files. 

DNG is an open standard unlike some proprietary standards used by other brands, which makes it obvious that some RAW converters don't support it. 

 

I have yet to come across a RAW converter that doesn't support my Leica S RAW files or any other Leica for that matter.   

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Secondly, lossless (no need for shouting) raw means that there should be no visual difference to an uncompressed file. It doesn't mean there isn't a difference. 100% isn't brought back by your raw converter. A lot of it has to do with unused bits in the capture file etc. When Leica say lossless it's the same as a watch maker saying waterproof. It is and it isn't.

 

 

 

Leica S, M240 RAW files that are compressed are 100% lossless compressed, there is no loss what so ever. In the Leica S files there is NO difference between a Lossless compressed and non compressed raw file when processed with Adobe Photoshop or Lightroom. What you are saying is however correct for the Leica M9 where it is indeed NOT lossless although Leica claims it is. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

What BernardC posted does work on the S2. It does not work on the S (Typ 007). I do not own the S (Typ 006) but I just read the instruction book for the Typ 006 and it looks like it does work like the S2.

 

 

It works the same way on the S007, but the other way around, the S007 made the SD slot its main card, DNG goes there, JPEGs to the CF.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be VERY happy to be proven wrong and shown how to do this but I have found it impossible for my S (Typ 007) to be set to write DNG to either card and JPG to the other. I think that I am up to 11000 or so images with the S and 15000 with the S2. Damned if I know how you can make the S  (Typ 007) do that. Unless this changed sometime in firmware???
I just tested again, both cards inserted:  DNG +JPG, and Storage Back up (CF&SD) ON..... I made 5 exposures. Both the CF card and the SDHC card have 5 DNGs and 5 JPGs written to them.

 

 DNG +JPG, and Storage Back up (CF&SD) OFF..... I made 5 exposures.  ...5x DNG and 5x JPG written to SDHC card and 0 files written to CF card

...................................................................
 

Storage of picture data / memory card management
If two memory cards are used, you have the possibility with the Leica S to choose
–– whether the picture data should first be stored on one of the two cards until its capacity is reached, and then on the other card, or whether the data should –– always be stored simultaneously on both cards.
 
Setting the function
1. In the menu, under SETUP , select the item Storage Backup (CF & SD) and
2. there select Off or On
Note:
If Off is selected:
–– The picture data are first stored on the SD/SDHC/SDXC card and then once its capacity is reached on the CF card. As soon as the camera is connected to a computer, it stores the picture data only in the specified folder on the computer.
If On is selected:
–– The picture data are stored simultaneously on both cards.
With both settings:
–– I f only one card is used (irrespective of which), the picture data are stored there.
................................................................................
 
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It works the same way on the S007, but the other way around, the S007 made the SD slot its main card, DNG goes there, JPEGs to the CF.

 

I am sorry, this is wrong, what hoppyman writes above is correct. I assumed the DNGs and JPEG were distributed over the 2 cards like on the S006, this is not the case. 

 

That said, I cannot say this is a problem. You have sort of a "double backup" when activated. It uses more space, but is also convenient for practical use, as CF card readers are mor rare, and you have both a DNG for post processing and a JPEG for immediate use on the same SD card.

Edited by erlingmm
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, guys.

 

I tried it and it works perfectly (DNG on CF and JPEGs on SD). You need to put it in Parallel setting, not Sequential.

 

Thanks for the advice on Compressed DNG. 

And now Georges, some of us would like to convince Leica Camera that we would like this functionality option put back in the S (Typ 007) as well.  I have to concede that SDHC card speeds have increased a lot since this first bothered me ;-) so writing speed is OK, just stop duplicating both formats on both cards!  I am not bothering with JPG as the backup copy now. However don't get me started on card writes with the S  (Typ 007) if you are tethering though. 

With the SL, slot one works with fastest standards anyway.

Edited by hoppyman
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...