Do all Summarit 5cm f1.5 "M" lenses have a glued on LTM to M adapter

[wlaidlaw]

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At some point I would like to add an LTM Summarit 5cm f1,5 to my LTM collection of cameras and lenses. For some reason the M versions often sell for about 30 to 40% less than the LTM versions. I seem to recall at some point being told that at least the earlier Summarit M lenses were just LTM versions with a glued on adapter. I would guess if this is the case, it would not be too difficult to dissolve or at least soften the glue and remove the adapter. Does anyone know if the glued on adapter was the case and did at some point the situation change and ones with "normal" one piece M mounts get produced (? at serial number xxxxxxxxx onwards). Is it possible to remove a one piece M mount and replace with an LTM mount, presumably held on with the usual 4 screws plus maybe shims.

 

Wilson 

[spydrxx]

I can't speak to the Summarit, but last year I picked up a Visoflex II which had a removable LTM mount via 3 small setscrews. To my surprise I found that I could interchange it with a normal M mount one (5 setscrews) on my regularly used Visoflex II. Maybe a similar situation exists for the Summarit.

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[luigi bertolotti]

If I remember correctly, Summarit was not one of the lenses for which the BM version was, initially, a LTM with factory adapter : they were such, by sure, some Summarons 35, the Summicron 90 too, and of course the SA 21 f4 which indeed never had a "native " BM; if you look at the 2 versions, the BM Mount is indeed a bit different at the base : it has a tapered DOF scale, whilst the SM is normally vertical (cylindrical) : this means that the mounts are directly machined on the focusing barrel (at least, I think so) and are not dismountable. Anyway... later on I can check my own items (I have both the BM and the LTM... this one is a "Taylor Hobson" engraved one)

 

To illustrate better :

 

BM version

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LTM version

Edited September 13, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

[wlaidlaw]

If I remember correctly, Summarit was not one of the lenses for which the BM version was, initially, a LTM with factory adapter : they were such, by sure, some Summarons 35, the Summicron 90 too, and of course the SA 21 f4 which indeed never had a "native " BM; if you look at the 2 versions, the BM Mount is indeed a bit different at the base : it has a tapered DOF scale, whilst the SM is normally vertical (cylindrical) : this means that the mounts are directly machined on the focusing barrel (at least, I think so) and are not dismountable. Anyway... later on I can check my own items (I have both the BM and the LTM... this one is a "Taylor Hobson" engraved one)

 

To illustrate better :

 

BM version

Summarit_50_15_BM.jpg

 

LTM version

Summarit_50_15_SM_TH.jpg

 

Many thanks Luigi. For my Reid, of course, I would love to find a TT&H engraved one. 

 

Wilson

Edited September 13, 2016 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

On page 171 of his Leica Lens book, Jim Lager shows a 1957 LTM Summarit with the 'reversed direction' aperture scale and with a permanently fixed M adapter. It was the case, though, that there were earlier M mount lenses with permanent M mounts (no adapter) and the original direction for the aperture scale. Below are a 1955 M Mount Summarit (with permanent M mount) and a 1957 LTM mount examples of the Summarit. It will be seen that the aperture scales go in opposite directions on these examples.

 

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I have included the XOONS hood for the Summarit and some filters which will fit under the XOONS hood on the M mount model. The hood will fit the LTM model, but the filters don't go on that well on this example.

 

Jim Lager uses the word 'occasionally' in respect of the LTM with 'permanent' adapter model, so it looks like this was, possibly, a special order item.

 

Original LTM Summarits should not be that difficult to source today.

 

William

Edited September 15, 2016 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

William, 

 

The problem with Summarits seems to be the extent of front element coating damage and fogging on the rearward elements. The other thing is I would rather like one with the Taylor, Taylor and Hobson engraving on it (and I am not prepared to have that faked on a non-TT&H lens). I have decided to live with the nice little Canon 50/1.8 until I find either a TT&H Summarit or preferably a TT&H/Cooke/National Optical collapsible Anastigmat, as I think the latter is better balanced on the small IIIB sized body of my Reid. 

 

Wilson

[willeica]

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My LTM model has some haze inside which shows up when shooting into the light. My M model is perfect in all respects. The lens is not as sharp as a Summilux but, to my mind, it has a bit more character. The lens is a development of the Xenon which was invented by Taylor Hobson and then licensed to Schneider who in turn licensed it to Leica. My f2 collapsible Taylor Hobson on my Reid is, of course, a completely different lens which is very good, but not quite as good as the Summarits. It is, as you say, a bit more compact and a better fit for the Reid.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

William,

 

The Summarit I looked at two weeks ago, which was at a dealer near Toulon, would not trigger focus peaking at any aperture below f11 on my M240. It had a lot of cleaning marks on the front and I was sure I could see some haze, although the dealer couldn't. Maybe he was doing a Horatio Nelson and putting it to his blind eye  . So it must have been very low contrast. 

 

My Canon f1.8 triggers focus peaking in the centre of the image fractionally closed down at f2, which is quite remarkable, as my Opton Sonnar doesn't until between f2.8 and 3.5, so the Canon must be a very contrasty lens, at least in the centre. If its sharpness did not fall off quite so markedly at large apertures, I would be totally satisfied with it. It will be interesting when I get the film developed out of the Reid, how film bowing effects the image and whether you see the corner softness to the same extent. 

 

Below are a couple of pictures of zero artistic merit to show what the Canon is like on the SL, the whole image and a corner crop. Interestingly it does not look nearly as soft in the corners on the SL as it did on the M240. I have noticed this before with old lenses but I have no idea why - a quirk of the angled micro lenses on the 240? If I am interpreting the appearance of the corner softness correctly, it think is the same coma/spherical aberration that older Noctiluxes get, which would not be a great surprise. The colour rendition is slightly blue/cool, which seems characteristic of early coated lenses but it is nothing like as bad as my Summitar, which really is quite blue. Zeiss seem to have been the first to get a handle on this and produce colour neutral coatings, I suppose because they had been doing it longer than anyone else. My '54 Sonnar has little if any perceptible colour cast. 

 

I was wondering if Will van Manen could transfer the mount off an LTM Jupiter J3 onto a Contax RF Opton Sonnar for me. I will phone and ask. 

 

Wilson

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[wlaidlaw]

Had a long chat with Malcolm Taylor this afternoon. He says that off hand, he should hopefully be able to fit the Opton Sonnar optical cell into the J3 mount, to arrive at an LTM Opton Sonnar. 

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

I have just spoken to another lens "expert" and he says that only the pre-war sonnar optical cell will fit into the Jupiter focusing mount, as the post war Opton Sonnar's cell is slightly larger. However Zeiss themselves made an LTM conversion mount for the post war Sonnar but I suspect they are rarer than hens teeth. Here is a corner crop from the Sonnar on the SL at f1.5. Quite soft but less spherical aberration than the Canon. What I did not do is move the focus square out to the corner, which I suspect would have made it sharper, as the one thing the Sonnar is well known for, is its curved focus plane. 

 

Wilson

 

 

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