What should I do...a predicament between systems and ability

[marsbars]

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Hi Guys,

Posted a few months ago regarding the decision between the M240 and M262.

 

 

I am in a bit of a predicament looking for some advice...

 

 

I have spent a considerable amount of money and time on my photography education. I haven't been to school for it or anything like that but I started with a digital slr and was taught on that for a while. Once I picked up the basics I decided it was time for something a bit different so I went in the direction of a micro 4/3. I still have my Olympus and love it. But I got a Leica Q when they were released and have really enjoyed it. It put the Leica bug in my ear and the camera of them all that I've always had dreams of is an M.

 

 

Here's the predicament...I consider myself to be a good photographer but not great obviously. I am lucky enough to have the means to buy into an M system setup. I'm worried however that even with pictures I think are ok on the M they in actual fact might not be if that makes sense. I have seen other members photos and they blow mine away. So my question is. Is it a worthwhile investment if I'm really willing to spend the time learning and getting better. Or is is definitely a camera for advanced-professional?

 

 

Thanks for reading!

[LocalHero1953]

It's the camera for the photographer who understands the technical  basics (exposure, focus, ISO), hasn't yet found the limits of their ability, and is keen to put the work in to push the boundaries of those limits (edit: tautology alert).

 

Your current abilities in absolute terms are not relevant. It's all about wanting to go further. As a camera, it will always be capable of taking better photos than your current standard. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by LocalHero1953

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[dkmoore]

I am not an advanced professional but have been using the Leica M platform for about 6 years now and love the cameras. 

 

Many times we are much more critical of our own work than we are of others. The M240 will certainly not hurt your chances of making great images.

[Exodies]

The difference between your photos and those you admire might be due to post processing. Get stuck in to Lightroom and all will be revealed. If you really want to enjoy photography then you must buy an M. Everything else is just toothpaste.

[Belle123]

 

Well, and you will find varying opinions on this, but for me I got a whole lot better with a manual camera. My first was was the Leica R in film, and then discovered the M and always owned an M ever since from variations from film to digital versions. Maybe because caused me to work harder at it? Every shot counted more. I stuck with manual cameras for a very long time. Now have a Q and a T as well. I can easily switch up and shoot manual with these. And maybe it was the combination of Leica glass combined with a well designed manual camera originally, kept me inspired and thus kept me shooting and improving? But I don't think is really the camera that did it. Was my desire and working hard at it. So, if you have a Q already, just keep working at it. Try going manual. It's a great camera. But the M might force you to slow down and take more time with shots. I know I have to force myself to slow down with the Q and compose.

 

Oh, and just read other response. I agree it might be in post processing. Lots to learn there.

Edited September 11, 2016 by billinghambaglady

[pgk]

So my question is. Is it a worthwhile investment if I'm really willing to spend the time learning and getting better.

 

Depends entirely on you. RF cameras are unforgiving but rewarding. IMO its far easier to learn photography through a simplistic, basic camera than it is with any other sort, but this is my opinion and I'm biased having shot RF cameras for over 35 years. I really enjoy using them which is, to me, the bottom line. And they are limited only by their inherent limitations and your imagination/creativity.

Or is is definitely a camera for advanced-professional?

 

No. But experience undoubtedly helps.

[dpitt]

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There is something about the limitations of the M rangefinder system which will force you to slow down and be more creative. The percentage of keepers will go up rather than go down, but your total number of pictures taken for the event will probably be lower than with a DSLR.

 

If camera's would be guns, the M would be a high end sniper rifle and the DSLR would rather be something like a machine gun. If you miss with the M, you miss badly, if you aim right you get a result the other type can never reach anyway.

 

Just remember to take the lens cap off before you take a picture!

 

Anyway, even with the lens cap on, the experience of shooting with the M is enjoyable...

As long as you do not need to capture unique events (weddings, birthday parties...) before you are comfortable with it, there is no harm done.

[earleygallery]

Hi,

 

The M is quite different to the other cameras you've used. You won't know if you'll like it without trying one though.

 

To get some idea you could put an optical finder on your Q and use manual focus. Stick to this and if you enjoy it the M will definitely be a better experience for you.

[Peter H]

If you're able to afford it, try it.

 

I imagine you'll have a great time discovering all sorts of little things about the camera and even more about your own photography and if, at the worst, you decide it's not the camera for you, I doubt you'll regret investing in the experience.

 

And at best, well, who knows!

[marsbars]

Thanks for all the replies and insights guys! It's really helpful! These forums are fantastic!

[bocaburger]

I"ve been using the Leica M system since before 1970, it's like an extension of my hands and eyes by now.  That's basically why I use it, not because of the glass, not because of great photographers who used Leicas 50-60-70 years ago, and not because I think it does or will make my images any better.  It just won't make them worse, which I can't say for newfangled cameras that have multitudes of buttons and menus and require memorizing a thick instruction manual just to turn them all off

[ramarren]

The M is a simple, solid camera with good lenses that does what I tell it to. And that's what I like about it. If I make a mistake, it's my mistake... That's it.

 

As long as you want to make great photos that satisfy you, an M will serve.

If you want a camera to make great photos for you, the M will not.

[tomlianza]

I look at Leica cameras in much the same way one might look at a Stradivarius violin: very special, capable of beautiful music, but it doesn't necessarily make one a better musician.  If you can afford the camera, buy it and use it.  I believe that you could probably do well with a Fuji X pro 2 and get to learn about the manual modes (with a good manual lens).  I own the M240 and love it, but the Fuji is quite good as well, and I use the Leica glass on it with very good results.  The key is take images regardless of the camera.  

 

Good luck

Tom Lianza  

[ECohen]

+1 to post #6

as long as you like the manual focus

[Smoothlander]

Don't confuse simplicity with performance.  The M is a wonderful camera.  Enjoy the frustration and then the complete self satisfaction when you master manual focusing.  It opens you up to becoming creative in the composition of your images.  

[jmahto]

The difference between your photos and those you admire might be due to post processing. Get stuck in to Lightroom and all will be revealed. If you really want to enjoy photography then you must buy an M. Everything else is just toothpaste.

+1

 

It is very much true. A good post processing can make even iPhone shot look good (provided it had artistic merit to start with). I am not denying that camera has no contribution but the contribution is mainly in technical quality (focusing accuracy, sensor, color etc.). The camera can also make you want to take it to places and shoot which you wouldn't have done otherwise but don't expect the camera to give you artistic quality. Yes, M lenses have character it you use them appropriately but it doesn't come just because you shoot with M.

 

I can relate to you regarding photographic journey and move to Leica M. For me (after getting over the hump of manual focusing) the immediate wow factor was sharpeness and bokeh. Well, I had bokeh in Canon 85 f1.2 as well but half the time it was out of focus. My pictures didn't become better overnight. What actually happened was that I started taking my M to all kind of places and started shooting more. I enjoyed shooting. and yes, the post processing gave even better results due to excellent sensor.

 

All in all, moving to M will be great but keep expectation real so that you don't get disappointed.

 

Happy journey.

[250swb]

 

Here's the predicament...I consider myself to be a good photographer but not great obviously. I am lucky enough to have the means to buy into an M system setup. I'm worried however that even with pictures I think are ok on the M they in actual fact might not be if that makes sense. I have seen other members photos and they blow mine away. So my question is. Is it a worthwhile investment if I'm really willing to spend the time learning and getting better. Or is is definitely a camera for advanced-professional?

 

 

Thanks for reading!

 

You are coming at the question of which camera to buy from the wrong direction.

 

What sort of photographs do you want to make? Answer that and then find the camera. For example, you haven't said you are following the path of social documentary photography, or 'street' photography, in which case a Leica M would be ideal. So you want to do sports photography maybe, in which case a Leica M is marginal to useless. Let's then assume you want to do a bit of each before discovering your oeuvre, the work for which you have most enthusiasm, in which case a DSLR or CCS like your Olympus would be the ideal choice.

 

A Leica M can do great landscape photography or gritty urban realism, it can get into peoples faces or it can be discreet and anonymous, but it can only do so much before you are wishing for a long zoom telephoto lens or faster burst speed. So I'd say just by being undecided in your own mind don't buy a Leica M, don't let people spend your money for you, it is a wonderful camera system, but while learning you can get so much more for less money. You have an Olympus, stick with the system and perhaps get the Pen F and a few of the small prime lenses to get you into the rangefinder style of shooting, the images will be indistinguishable from a Leica image if the camera is used in a similar mode to a Leica, and then there are many more options as well. When kitted out to discover every path you may want to go down, then is the time to buy a Leica if it still seems like it will help with one aspect or another of your work, but any improvement will only be marginal not ground breaking.

 

 

Steve

[thighslapper]

A rangefinder is a good educational tool when it comes to mastering manual focussing, lens choice, use of DOF and composition, as by it's nature it makes you slow down, consider what you are doing and take more care. 

 

The Monochrom in addition makes you think in terms of light, shadow and tones and you learn to pick subjects and compose in black and white in your head, rather than pick photos to convert to B&W after the event.

 

Neither will increase your % of good photos initially ...... there will be plenty which will be technically poor as so much has to be done manually and thought about at the same time as gaining familiarity with the camera. 

 

Having had multiple M's over the years I am glad I used them ...... but they are NOT my choice of a Leica camera that offers the greatest % of technically excellent and well composed photos. 

 

That goes to the SL. 

 

A far better camera system all round and a pleasure and easy to use even with manual focus M lenses. Yes, it's big and heavy by comparison but I will forgive it that for what it has given me in terms of images from it. 

 

I still have an MP and Monochrom ...... but only the latter gets a day out occasionally. It's the SL I reach for first ......

 

...... you will never get good images out of a camera you don't enjoy using ...... either it will rarely leave the house or you will be in a constant state of irritation with it ....

 

ps ..... do not be deluded by your experience of the Q ..... it is probably the best general use camera Leica have ever produced ....... and not much else in the Leica stable comes close to its combination of superb image quality, size, flexibility and ease of use. 

Edited September 14, 2016 by thighslapper

[Peter Branch]

I"ve been using the Leica M system since before 1970, it's like an extension of my hands and eyes by now.  That's basically why I use it, not because of the glass, not because of great photographers who used Leicas 50-60-70 years ago, and not because I think it does or will make my images any better.  It just won't make them worse, which I can't say for newfangled cameras that have multitudes of buttons and menus and require memorizing a thick instruction manual just to turn them all off

 

The On/Off switch on the Leica SL, which I assume was your target, is simple, clear, well positioned and not easily switched accidentally, and is therefore quite unlike the one on the M240.  

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[Peter H]

The On/Off switch on the Leica SL, which I assume was your target, is simple, clear, well positioned and not easily switched accidentally, and is therefore quite unlike the one on the M240.  

 

 

My guess is that Bocaburger wasn't talking about switching the camera off, but negotiating his way through the host of menu items that he doesn't want or need. And I also guess that he wasn't targeting the SL either, but just explaining why the M cameras continue to work so well for him, and he makes a very valid and valuable point, and I have a lot of sympathy with that view.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Peter H