Please help me determine the purchase value of a used 90 Summicron

[Stonewall Brigade]

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My local camera store has a very clean, used Leitz Summicron-M 90mm f/2 lens for sale, black body, pull-out lens shade, at $900.  It looks really nice and can almost pass as new, cosmetically.  However, the serial number 3263537 dates the lens to 1983 production, making it approx. 33 years old.  Obviously it does not have the current 6-bit digital coding.

 

I would be using it on a new M (TYP262), where a non-coded lens must be manually entered in the camera's menu (easy to do).  I already have the Summarit-M 50 f/2.4 and Summarit-M 75mm f/2.4, plus a 28mm Elmarit-M f/2.8.

 

I have 4 basic questions:

 

(1) What do you think is a reasonable retail sale price for this used lens?

 

(2) Optically, will I possibly be able to tell the difference in color, contrast or sharpness with this 33-year old lens, compared to a new (non-APO) Summicron-M 90mm f/2?

 

(3) Is this lens ASPH?  (The lens is not marked ASPH, but I see identical ones on eBay larked ASPH).

 

(3) Any general opinion about this used lens as my source for an occasional 90 mm optic, verses buying a new one at $2,195 (B&H Photo price)?

 

Thanks in advance for all comments.

 

 

[NB23]

Excellent mandler lens which has no expiry date. Good at least until it's 133 years old (why not?).

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Stonewall Brigade,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

The 90mm, F2 Summicron-M that you are writing about is an earliar lens that looks physically similar to the current  90mm, F2 APO lens.     

It is NOT the same lens optically as today's 90mm, F2 APO Summicron.

 

The 90mm Summicron that you are writing about should be the second lens shade version. This means that when you collapse the lens shade you should still be able to see the aperture dial. The first version covered the aperture dial when it was collapsed.

 

Both lens shade versions of this earlier lens are optically the same.

 

The lens you are writing about is the smaller & lighter sucessor to an earlier version which it replaced.

 

The 90mm, F2 APO Summicron is its replacement.

 

It is not an Asph lens. It is also not an APO lens.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited August 15, 2016 by Michael Geschlecht

[Stonewall Brigade]

Hello Stonewall Brigade,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

The 90mm, F2 Summicron-M that you are writing about is an earliar lens that looks physically similar to the current  90mm, F2 APO lens.     

It is NOT the same lens optically as today's 90mm, F2 APO Summicron.

 

The 90mm Summicron that you are writing about should be the second lens shade version. This means that when you collapse the lens shade you should still be able to see the aperture dial. The first version covered the aperture dial when it was collapsed.

 

Both lens shade versions of this earlier lens are optically the same.

 

The lens you are writing about is the smaller & lighter sucessor to an earlier version which it replaced.

 

The 90mm, F2 APO Summicron is its replacement.

 

It is not an Asph lens. It is also not an APO lens.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Thank you, Michael.  I am aware that the used Summicron-M 90 f/2 lens I found for sale is not the APO version, but wonder how similar it is (from am optical quality standpoint) from the new version non-APO lens that cost U.S. $2,195.  (I think the new APO version is about $3,600).  My other 90mm used lens option at another camera store is the Leitz Elmar-C 90mm f/4 (marked Wetzeler) for sale at $300.  It's serial number is dated to 1973.  I tried about a dozen photos with it and most of the images were very nice, though some images lacked some contrast.  But for $300 it is affordable.  The 1983 era Summicron-M 90 f/2 lens I found today for sale, at $900, looks much more modern and is half the price of a new lens.  But then I found that it was made in 1983 and that concerns me about putting it on a new M262.  Perhaps I should just save for a new (non-APO) version, or, take a chance on the Summicron that is 33 years old?

[TomB_tx]

I find the 90 Summicrons too big and heavy for my taste, but I prefer small lenses. I picked up an Elmar-C a few years ago, and believe it is the best bargain in Leica 90s. I find it to be a fairly high contrast lens, and it works well on my M9.

There are times when I'd like a bit more speed for indoor use, so I'm starting to look for a Summarit 2.5, and the coded lens would be nice as I'm considering the M-D, which has no manual lens selections.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Stonewall Brigade,

 

There are a lot of questions in your 1 paragraph. I think they are best answered individually.

 

The lens of the serial number that you wrote LOOKS very similar to the current APO lens because:

 

There are a number of Leitz/Leica lenses & camera bodies that have a remarkable resemblance to their predecessors & the lens that we are writing about is 1 of those.

 

The lens model from the serial number you wrote (Regardless of lens SHADE variety.) is an OPTICAL version that ceased production in 1998 when the APO version replaced it.

 

So a new 1 would be from 1998 or before. New in Box.

 

Leitz/Leica lenses are built to a MECHANICAL quality level so that whether a lens is 5, 15, 50 or 75 years old, or older, with reasonable care & reasonable service (Better done ONLY when needed.): It should work mechanically correctly in a seamless manner when used on an old or a modern film or digital body. Except sometimes*.

 

* Sometimes a lens (More likely an older lens but sometimes a brand new out of the box lens.) needs calibration to focus properly with a film camera or, more likely, with a digital camera. But, not often with either.

 

Given the above: I would personally NOT pay twice the price of a used lens for a new in box lens when the same lens is available in almost new condition mechanically & optically (Graded as Ex + +, or higher.) for half of the price of the new in box lens. As long as the used lens comes with some sort of reasonable guarantee that includes a return of your money if the lens does not operate as advertised (By the person you bought it from.) & is not fixable by them or thru them at no cost to you for the repair(s) necessary to bring that lens up to the manufacturer's standards for that lens. And you are given a reasonable time period to do this in.

 

Because sometimes it takes a certain amount of time to realize that there is a problem & figure out what is what.

 

So, what we are talking about here is optical quality & most likely the optical quality of the different versions (Not their ages.) at larger than usual magnifications.

 

All of the lenses you wrote about will produce very fine photos in most situations at most apertures. Altho some are better in some situations sometimes.

 

Even if a person is using the best lens in the World if they are holding the camera/lens shakely, especially at a low shutter speed, they are liable to have an imperfect photo. More imperfect than the differences between all of the lenses mentioned.

 

Many (Not all.) of the problems in terms of lens quality that people write about only show themselves on a tripod. Or at very large image magnification.

 

If all of the lenses you mentioned are used hand held at the apertures of F4, F5.6 & F8 it would probably be difficult to tell many of the photos apart. Except that certain of the lenses treat certain colors somewhat differently than the others do in a small way.

 

Many differences that people write about in terms of lenses of the calibre of ALL of these has to do with lens performance at larger apertures such as F2 & F2.8. In terms of the lenses being considered here.

 

This, by the way, is true when comparing a number of other lenses of other focal lengths also.

 

As to the specifics of the different lenses & their individual why's & wherefore's: There have been a large number of different Threads in the past that deal with the specifics of the very lenses you are asking about. You can find them on the internal "Search" box at the top of this page. Along with NB23's & Tom's good advice in the Posts just above you might look up Andy Piper who uses the screen name of "Adan" who has written quite a bit about these very lenses.

 

I hope this has been helpful.

 

Always ask when you have a question.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited August 16, 2016 by Michael Geschlecht

[Stonewall Brigade]

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Michael, thank you sincerely for your words of wisdom, and especially your patience to respond with the depth of knowledge.  I will search the archives as you suggest.  I do find that the long lineage of Leica lens can cover many years between variations, and it can be daunting to find the exact report of a particular lens, or, to know exactly what era of a used lens can be found for sale.  The serial number check system is very helpful - I doubt anyone can find and use a 33 year old Japanese lens onto a contemporary Japanese film or digital camera body.  Those lens mounting systems have changed over the years and made so much of the Japanese gear almost unusable today.  Bets regards.

[spydrxx]

"I doubt anyone can find and use a 33 year old Japanese lens onto a contemporary Japanese film or digital camera body.  Those lens mounting systems have changed over the years and made so much of the Japanese gear almost unusable today."

 

I take issue with this statement...for the most part it is inaccurate. I use a variety of 30-50 yr old German and Japanese lenses on modern equipment almost daily, and they usually work flawlessly. No, their characteristics aren't the same as modern lens designs, usually contrast and micro-edge rendering are different, as is the transition from central field to edge of the frame. But they work just fine. You should try some for a delightful change of pace. .

[Chuck Albertson]

I doubt anyone can find and use a 33 year old Japanese lens onto a contemporary Japanese film or digital camera body.  Those lens mounting systems have changed over the years and made so much of the Japanese gear almost unusable today.  Bets regards.

I click a Nikkor 85 f/2 that I bought in '83 onto my D750 and use it all the time. And it also works with an FM2/F4/F6 when I shoot film. Canon may have switched lens mounts when they started selling autofocus lenses, but the Nikon F mount is pretty near eternal.

[Stonewall Brigade]

"I doubt anyone can find and use a 33 year old Japanese lens onto a contemporary Japanese film or digital camera body.  Those lens mounting systems have changed over the years and made so much of the Japanese gear almost unusable today."

 

I take issue with this statement...for the most part it is inaccurate. I use a variety of 30-50 yr old German and Japanese lenses on modern equipment almost daily, and they usually work flawlessly. No, their characteristics aren't the same as modern lens designs, usually contrast and micro-edge rendering are different, as is the transition from central field to edge of the frame. But they work just fine. You should try some for a delightful change of pace. .

 

I am referring to native lens mounts, without the aid of adapters. Yes, there are exceptions, but there are also lots of abandoned lens mounting means.

[John Black]

$900 is a fair price for the lens if it's in proper working condition, clean, etc.  If you can test out the lens on your M and focus accuracy at F2 seems well matched, then that's a point in its favor.  I've used both the 90mm pre-APO and APO for many years -

 

Pre APO - a bit softer wide open, tends to show chromatic aberrations in the bokeh (magenta & green color) - this par for Mandler designs (IMO).  As the lens is stopped down, it's quite sharp and F5.6, I don't know if I could tell any difference between it vs the APO.

 

APO - very sharp wide open.  My copy shows no purple fringe when shot at F2 - probably the best lens I've used in this regard (in the 75-100mm range).  The sharpness at F2 is on par with the Zeiss 100mm F2 Makro Planar at F2.  Generally, I might prefer the pre-APO for portraits.  I sold my 90mm pre-APO ~4 years ago, so memories fade.  The 90mm APO is a wicked landscape lens.  I really don't have much to complain with the 90mm APO except that its bokeh isn't quite as smooth as I'd like.

 

Summing it up, if smooth bokeh and portraits are the main use, I'd suggest the 90mm pre-APO.  If wide open sharpness (and overall wide open performance) is more in line with your preferences, then the 90 APO would be my suggestion.

[pgk]

(1) What do you think is a reasonable retail sale price for this used lens?

 

Try ebay sold listings and search the web for current dealer asking prices. $900 doesn't seem bad to me.

 

 

(2) Optically, will I possibly be able to tell the difference in color, contrast or sharpness with this 33-year old lens, compared to a new (non-APO) Summicron-M 90mm f/2?

 

Yes, because only the Apo-Summicron is now available new! (See pre-Apo is a very good lens but is no longer available new and today's designs today are 'better' technically at least and the newer Apo lens will be 'sharper' especially wide-open.

 

(3) Is this lens ASPH?  (The lens is not marked ASPH, but I see identical ones on eBay larked ASPH).

 

No its not. Any pre-Apo lenses described as ASPH are incorrectly described and do not have an aspheric surface in their design.

 

(4) Any general opinion about this used lens as my source for an occasional 90 mm optic, verses buying a new one at $2,195 (B&H Photo price)?

 

Yes. First make sure that it focuses correctly on your digital camera and ensure that if it does not, the dealer will deal with this under warranty or includes any potential adjustment in the price. Not all these older lenses focus as accurately as they now need to do on digital cameras, but they can be adjusted so that they do focus correctly. I've owned a couple and to be worth having they must focus accurately. Secondly, you may want to 6-bit code it and if its Leica Order number is 11136, which it probably is, then it can be coded. Having an uncoded lens (as I do) risks forgetting to set it correctly on the camera which is frustrating to say the least, I know! As an occasional 90mm it will be fine, but unless you need the f/2 aperture I would suggest a that either the Summarit or Elmarit-M may be a more suitable choice as both are reasonably priced and being smaller/lighter may get used more due to carriability and compatible filters. Just my thoughts. And all that said, the Mandler 90mm Summicron IS a lovely lens .

[Belle123]

I don't know if this helps, but I recently traded one like you describe in and got $700 back for it. This retailer usually turns around and puts for sale at 150 percent or more, so $900 is a good price.

[dpitt]

I have no doubt that you would see the difference between those two lenses on all apertures.

That does not mean you will always prefer the newer lens. They will just draw differently.

 

Older lenses usually are a bit softer wide open.

Nothing can be done in post about this, but for portraits it might be an advantage.

 

Older lenses almost always need a bit of extra contrast, easily applied in LR.

The fall off in sharpness and bokeh might be more pleasing on the older lenses.

 

ASPH lenses are sometimes a bit 'harsh' in comparison with the sweet micro contrast of older glass.

 

OTH , APO lenses do have some special way in treating light that makes the picture light up in a most particular way. If you want that effect no other design will come close...

 

If your wallet allows it, choose the APO, otherwise buy the second hand one without hesitation.

Just make sure you reserve $250 for a possible CLA and make sure there are no scratches on front or back elements.

Edited August 16, 2016 by dpitt

[earleygallery]

Older lenses almost always need a bit of extra contrast, easily applied in LR.

The fall off in sharpness and bokeh might be more pleasing on the older lenses.

 

ASPH lenses are sometimes a bit 'harsh' in comparison with the sweet micro contrast of older glass.

I don't agree with your first statement. I think it's the fashion to 'over process' digital images, so many are too saturated, too contrasty and over sharpened. The resulting images have that digital look about them.

 

As you say results from lenses that are sharp and high contrast can look harsh especially with heavy handed PP as well!

Edited August 16, 2016 by earleygallery

[Stonewall Brigade]

I have no doubt that you would see the difference between those two lenses on all apertures.

That does not mean you will always prefer the newer lens. They will just draw differently.

 

Older lenses usually are a bit softer wide open.

Nothing can be done in post about this, but for portraits it might be an advantage.

 

Older lenses almost always need a bit of extra contrast, easily applied in LR.

The fall off in sharpness and bokeh might be more pleasing on the older lenses.

 

ASPH lenses are sometimes a bit 'harsh' in comparison with the sweet micro contrast of older glass.

 

OTH , APO lenses do have some special way in treating light that makes the picture light up in a most particular way. If you want that effect no other design will come close...

 

If your wallet allows it, choose the APO, otherwise buy the second hand one without hesitation.

Just make sure you reserve $250 for a possible CLA and make sure there are no scratches on front or back elements.

My dozen or so test shots with the 1983-era Summicron-M 90mm f/2 came back rather disappointing.  Flat color and contrast, and not really sharp focus.  The lens may have an issue, but I feel certain I know how to select and shot images that should deliver better color, sharpness, etc.  I was using ISO 200 and f/8.

 

In comparison, I made similar test shots with a 1973-era Leitz Elmar-C 90mm f/4, also for sale locally at $300.  I used the same settings.  However, my images from that lens were much better, even though Leica tech support tells me the old Leica CL lens won't work on a modern digital M camera.  I cannot explain why, but my quick test of both use lens choices showed the small Elmar-C was better, at least among these two specific options.

[Chuck Albertson]

In comparison, I made similar test shots with a 1973-era Leitz Elmar-C 90mm f/4, also for sale locally at $300.  I used the same settings.  However, my images from that lens were much better, even though Leica tech support tells me the old Leica CL lens won't work on a modern digital M camera.  I cannot explain why, but my quick test of both use lens choices showed the small Elmar-C was better, at least among these two specific options.

I've been told that about the Elmar-C for a long time. It was made for the CL, which has a shorter rangefinder base, and the focusing cam on the lens is not supposed to match well with the M-series Leicas (film or digital). I've only noticed focusing problems at minimum range, wide open, and not that significant. It is kinder to subjects of a certain age than the APO.

[TomB_tx]

As I mentioned, I use the Elmar-C on my M9 with no focus issues at all. Indeed, the CL lenses use a ramped cam design for more compact construction (and lower cost), but I believe the main reason Leica warned not to use them on M cameras was economic: so they wouldn't take sales away from the more expensive lenses. The CL and lenses actually sold quite well when new, but overall Leica sales were declining, so they wanted to sell models with higher profit. (They still do!)

[lct]

(1) What do you think is a reasonable retail sale price for this used lens?

A: $900 is fair if the lens in mint condition.

(2) Optically, will I possibly be able to tell the difference in color, contrast or sharpness with this 33-year old lens, compared to a new (non-APO) Summicron-M 90mm f/2?
A: There is no such thing as new 90/2 non apo. Only current Summicron 90 is apo. Compared to yours (aka 90/2 v3) the latter is softer at f/2 and less contrasty. No serious problem there, different sharpness is mainly visible on corners and edges. Also v3 is more forgiving for portrait. But v3 has significantly more CA, it is the only serious flaw of this lens. Also given the very thin DoF you could well need a lens calibration.

(3) Is this lens ASPH? (The lens is not marked ASPH, but I see identical ones on eBay larked ASPH).
A: No.

(4) Any general opinion about this used lens as my source for an occasional 90 mm optic, verses buying a new one at $2,195 (B&H Photo price)?
A: Great lens for portraits. Better than the Apo there unless your models have a perfect skin. CA is a problem though. You will have much less of it with Apo but given its sharpness at f/2 little misfocusings will be more visible. Better use an EVF or a magnifier if your hit rate is too low with the rangefinder. And don't forget what i said about calibration of v3. Same for Apo if it is not new

(5) By the way you can have a v2 for less and it has less CA. Same sharpness as v3 more or less, built like a tank but more bulky.

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[dpitt]

I don't agree with your first statement. I think it's the fashion to 'over process' digital images, so many are too saturated, too contrasty and over sharpened. The resulting images have that digital look about them.

 

As you say results from lenses that are sharp and high contrast can look harsh especially with heavy handed PP as well!

 

Too much of anything is never good.

You are right, too much added contrast is bad. That is why I said 'a bit' of added contrast is needed...

The good thing about the older lenses is that you get to choose how much of contrast you add in PP. 

To me that is an advantage over the more modern lenses.

 

Regarding the Elmar C 90. I have used this lens in both M8 or M9 with very good results. It is a real bargain! For 90mm lenses, F4.0 or F5.6 is often the best aperture to use, so if that is fast enough, it is a good solution. A Tele-Elmarit-M was my favourite 90 mm . It adds an extra stop and is as small as the 90C Elmar. I rarely used it at F2.8, but it could be handy indoors.

 

Since I have the Macro Elmar-M 90mm F4.0 it is my new favourite 90. It is even more compact and delivers the best IQ for my eyes, even wide open. The only disadvantage is its price tag. I rarely miss the extra stop compared to the Tele-Elmarit M. The rubber hood of the ElmarC 90 is very handy on this lens too.