Setting up the SL

[eprom]

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Hi there,

 

yesterday I received my new SL as a replacement of my M 240.

I´m trying now to set up the new cam for my needs. I will use the SL with my M-lenses.

I use the SONY A7II since 1,5 years and like the way it lets me work in manual-mode. I´m trying desperately to set up the SL in the same way.

 

1.) I´m trying to achive that the SL shows me the picture in the viewfinder as it will look like when I take the photo with the settings of aperture an time I have set in manual-mode.

     I want to see how underexposed it looks when I use an aperture that is to dark or to light. I don´t want to press an additional button to see the result. Isn´t that possible?

 

2.) Is it possible to show the focus points (crosses) in MF-mode? It would be much easier to select the point for the magnification before pressing the magnification-button and than cycle to the point I want.

 

 

Looking forward to your answers, thanks a lot for your help,

Peter__

[wildlightphoto]

1.) I´m trying to achive that the SL shows me the picture in the viewfinder as it will look like when I take the photo with the settings of aperture an time I have set in manual-mode.

     I want to see how underexposed it looks when I use an aperture that is to dark or to light. I don´t want to press an additional button to see the result. Isn´t that possible?

 

 

 

No.  This is one of my biggest complaints about the SL.  I wish Leica would get off their collective rear ends and update the firmware to allow this.

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[ramarren]

The SL does not work like the Sony A7 does. 

 

• You can preview what the exposure is going to be by half-pressing the shutter release or by tapping the FN button twice for exposure simulation mode with adapted lenses. (One tap on the FN does aperture simulation with dedicated lenses.) This mode resets after you make the exposure. 
• There are no focus points in Manual Focus mode. With adapted lenses, I target what I want to focus on in the center of the frame and then magnify because magnification resets to the center default each time. If working with a tripod or other fixed support and manual lenses, I magnify then target my focus point with the joystick so that I don't have to change the camera's position. 

 

That's how the SL works. Personally, I like it a lot more than the way the A7 worked: I always have a bright, clear viewfinder to focus with, and I always know exactly where magnification is going to be enabled. I can always see the preview with a shutter half press or use exposure simulation for more studied appraisals of exposure behavior. 

[Guest VVJ]

I quite frankly have never understood this problem, so can all this bitching about the EVF be reduced to an unwillingness to half-press the shutter?  

 

Can somebody please explain to me why half-pressing the shutter is such a problem?

Edited August 12, 2016 by JorisV

[ramarren]

I've never found it to be a problem at all. It is, in fact, the way I prefer my mirrorless cameras to work and nets the most advantage for my photography.

 

Doug feels differently, however.

[LocalHero1953]

Choice. I would prefer to see the exposure preview all the time, and not have to press a button each time. 

I don't expect everyone to want the same.

I would like the option to set it that way.

Calling it bitching is unwarranted discourtesy, IMO.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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I quite frankly have never understood this problem, so can all this bitching about the EVF be reduced to an unwillingness to half-press the shutter?  

 

Can somebody please explain to me why half-pressing the shutter is such a problem?

 

I'll give you three reasons...

 

1. The function is available on the M. A camera where the viewfinder is optional. But it's not available on the camera where the EVF is central to it's functionality.

 

2. Live exposure preview works differently depending which mode your in. In P,A and T, it's on always. In M it's a half press or double tap the front button. Nothing more annoying than a camera that doesn't have consistency of operation. How can you get to know the camera well enough that it becomes instinctive if they change how it operates in different modes?

 

3. The function is disabled if you put a TTL flash on the camera, while shooting in manual mode. One of the great benefits of an EVF, blending TTL flash and background exposure, is made as difficult as possible, when it should be easier than any optical viewfinder.

 

and a 4th for good measure.

 

4. Allowing the user the CHOICE is one of the great benefits of a camera that can be customised. The camera allows certain functions when some dude in Germany thinks they should be appropriate, not when I would find them useful. When I'm shooting interiors I'd prefer the function on half press. When I'm shooting a wedding I'd rather have it on all the time. On the M system I can set a profile and the camera behaves how I want it to for that application. But with the SL I don't get any choice. Both options are available but only if I switch shooting modes. And that's frustrating.

 

Gordon

 

p.s. and don't get me started on the EVF brightness or auto ISO bugs.

Edited August 12, 2016 by FlashGordonPhotography

[Guest VVJ]

Choice. I would prefer to see the exposure preview all the time, and not have to press a button each time. 

I don't expect everyone to want the same.

I would like the option to set it that way.

Calling it bitching is unwarranted discourtesy, IMO.

 

I did not want to offend anybody, and I certainly was not thinking of you, but yes, the way some people talk about this behavior in a the sky is falling type of way on this forum is bitching IMHO.  Now that I fully understand the issue I actually even think that more than before.

Edited August 12, 2016 by JorisV

[Guest VVJ]

I'll give you three reasons...

 

1. The function is available on the M. A camera where the viewfinder is optional. But it's not available on the camera where the EVF is central to it's functionality.

 

2. Live exposure preview works differently depending which mode your in. In P,A and T, it's on always. In M it's a half press or double tap the front button. Nothing more annoying than a camera that doesn't have consistency of operation. How can you get to know the camera well enough that it becomes instinctive if they change how it operates in different modes?

 

3. The function is disabled if you put a TTL flash on the camera, while shooting in manual mode. One of the great benefits of an EVF, blending TTL flash and background exposure, is made as difficult as possible, when it should be easier than any optical viewfinder.

 

and a 4th for good measure.

 

4. Allowing the user the CHOICE is one of the great benefits of a camera that can be customised. The camera allows certain functions when some dude in Germany thinks they should be appropriate, not when I would find them useful. When I'm shooting interiors I'd prefer the function on half press. When I'm shooting a wedding I'd rather have it on all the time. On the M system I can set a profile and the camera behaves how I want it to for that application. But with the SL I don't get any choice. Both options are available but only if I switch shooting modes. And that's frustrating.

 

Gordon

 

p.s. and don't get me started on the EVF brightness or auto ISO bugs.

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

I am still on a M9, always work in M mode and never use a TTL flash...

 

I am fine with the functionality as it works right now but I get the comment about the inconsistency.  That is indeed very irritating.

 

Regards, Joris.

[ramarren]

Since I haven't yet really used a flash on the SL (other than to test one thing or another) and almost always use A mode or M mode (because I mostly use Leica R lenses rather than dedicated lenses), the preview function seems to work quite consistently for me. 

 

Full exposure preview does take some data collection and processing/display time when exposure times get long, this can make the camera quite unresponsive occasionally. 

 

But neither of these things are a big deal. Of course it would be nicest if the camera had additional configuration capability. We'll have to see if Leica engineering can find a way to incorporate it without mucking up the whole design. (I'd like to see them fix the AutoISO bug first, though; it's more important.)

[wildlightphoto]

(I'd like to see them fix the AutoISO bug first, though; it's more important.)

 

It's more important to those who use Auto ISO.  Not to those who don't.

 

For the way I use a mirrorless camera the automatic viewfinder brightness "feature" in manual mode is a much more serious flaw.  If this is bitching so be it; it's one of the biggest reasons I used the Sony more than the SL when I had both (and why I kept the Sony).

 

 

Full exposure preview does take some data collection and processing/display time when exposure times get long, this can make the camera quite unresponsive occasionally. 

 

 

How important is responsiveness when exposure times get long?

Edited August 13, 2016 by wildlightphoto

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Since I haven't yet really used a flash on the SL (other than to test one thing or another) and almost always use A mode or M mode (because I mostly use Leica R lenses rather than dedicated lenses), the preview function seems to work quite consistently for me. 

 

Full exposure preview does take some data collection and processing/display time when exposure times get long, this can make the camera quite unresponsive occasionally. 

 

But neither of these things are a big deal. Of course it would be nicest if the camera had additional configuration capability. We'll have to see if Leica engineering can find a way to incorporate it without mucking up the whole design. (I'd like to see them fix the AutoISO bug first, though; it's more important.)

 

Well the M, which has significantly less processing power can do it, I see no reason the SL should have any difficulty. Also the SL doesn't become less responsive in A or T modes, where the exposure preview is constant, compared to M mode where it is a half press. If anything the half press mode would require the most processing power.

 

To me it's the single biggest deal, after it being completely and compulsorily disabled in M mode when using TTL flash which is a completely daft design decision. EVF behaviour on an EVF camera is a huge deal, IMHO and Leica have it wrong. I only use auto ISO occasionally and wouldn't miss it if it weren't there. I can appreciate that it's important for others though.

 

Gordon

 

* when I say they have it wrong, it's because it functions differently in different modes. It's as if two different people designed how it behaves in M mode vs the *auto* modes at separate times on different days and one of them was in a bad mood. The option to have live exposure preview as always on or half press or both (which I think we all want plus an off option) is Leica's to make. But it needs to be the same whatever mode the camera is in.

Edited August 13, 2016 by FlashGordonPhotography

[ramarren]

 

1) It's more important to those who use Auto ISO.  Not to those who don't.

 

...

How important is responsiveness when exposure times get long?

 

 

 

1- Of course, Doug. I did use "I" in that opinion: it is my opinion relevant to my use... 

 

2- Responsiveness, releasing the shutter at just the right moment, is as important to me when exposures are long as it is when exposures are short. Why wouldn't it be? 

[ramarren]

Well the M, which has significantly less processing power can do it, I see no reason the SL should have any difficulty. Also the SL doesn't become less responsive in A or T modes, where the exposure preview is constant, compared to M mode where it is a half press. If anything the half press mode would require the most processing power.

 

To me it's the single biggest deal, after it being completely and compulsorily disabled in M mode when using TTL flash which is a completely daft design decision. EVF behaviour on an EVF camera is a huge deal, IMHO and Leica have it wrong. I only use auto ISO occasionally and wouldn't miss it if it weren't there. I can appreciate that it's important for others though.

 

Gordon

 

* when I say they have it wrong, it's because it functions differently in different modes. It's as if two different people designed how it behaves in M mode vs the *auto* modes at separate times on different days and one of them was in a bad mood. The option to have live exposure preview as always on or half press or both (which I think we all want plus an off option) is Leica's to make. But it needs to be the same whatever mode the camera is in.

 

Well, you and I agree on the first thing and disagree on the second. 

 

I like how the SL EVF works and prefer it head-and-shoulders to the EVF behavior on the M-P. It's one of the reasons I use the SL so much more of the time. In fact, I've just about discontinued using the EVF on the M-P entirely and have moved to using the M-D almost exclusively with my M lenses as a result. 

 

This is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to be a camera manufacturer: even similarly knowledgable, experienced members of the same audience for a particular camera can have radically different opinions, likes and dislikes, about how they want their equipment to function. That's why we see so many cameras with massive piles of commands and configuration options, little 'magic wurlitzer' boxes, trying to be all things to all users. 

 

Sometimes, I am absolutely convinced that the M-D is the finest digital camera ever made. No options at all, just turn it on and use it, no in-camera operations other than the barest minimum to save the raw data. Everything else is up to you, the user, to supply. Just like my Leica M4-2 and Nikon F are, but it's got a meter in it.  

Edited August 13, 2016 by ramarren

[Guest VVJ]

 

For the way I use a mirrorless camera the automatic viewfinder brightness "feature" in manual mode is a much more serious flaw.  If this is bitching so be it; it's one of the biggest reasons I used the Sony more than the SL when I had both (and why I kept the Sony).

 

I read your excellent impressions of the Leica SL a while ago and my understanding was that you owned the Sony A7rII and loaned the Leica SL from a friend.  No offense but that is slightly different from what you are saying above.  You had the Sony and decided not to get the Leica SL.  You are a Sony shooter who was already conditioned by the behavior of the Sony and (similarly to the OP) expected the Leica to work in exactly the same fashion which it currently clearly doesn't.

[wildlightphoto]

I read your excellent impressions of the Leica SL a while ago and my understanding was that you owned the Sony A7rII and loaned the Leica SL from a friend.  No offense but that is slightly different from what you are saying above.  You had the Sony and decided not to get the Leica SL.  You are a Sony shooter who was already conditioned by the behavior of the Sony and (similarly to the OP) expected the Leica to work in exactly the same fashion which it currently clearly doesn't.

 

 

I'm a Sony shooter?  Perhaps you have no clue that I've been using Leica R equipment, almost exclusively, since 1979.  The Sony is a digital back for my Leica-R lenses intended as a stop-gap between the DMR (sold in 2015) and the SL.  I have no E-mount lenses nor do I expect to purchase any E-mount lenses.  You really ought to know what you're talking about before you type.

 

PS clueless jackasses are why I've nearly disappeared from most discussion forums.  Adios.

Edited August 14, 2016 by wildlightphoto

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I'm a Sony shooter?  Perhaps you have no clue that I've been using Leica R equipment, almost exclusively, since 1979.  The Sony is a digital back for my Leica-R lenses intended as a stop-gap between the DMR (sold in 2015) and the SL.  I have no E-mount lenses nor do I expect to purchase any E-mount lenses.  You really ought to know what you're talking about before you type.

 

PS clueless jackasses are why I've nearly disappeared from most discussion forums.  Adios.

 

that was a bit rough. his post was polite. yours was anything but.

 

Maybe it's best you do disappear.

 

Gordon

[thighslapper]

we've all been down this acrimonious road before.

 

Leica fixed the 'real time exposure EVF' view on the M and there is no reason why they won't provide this as an option on the SL.

 

They have tinkered with quite a few things on the Q and shown willingness to accede to users requests ..... and they are getting quicker at implementing things ...... albeit by Leica standards...... 

 

No camera manufacturer can produce a new camera that does everything that every user would want, and Leica in particular have a philosophy of sticking to essentials and trying to keep functionality as immune as possible from the scourge of multiple layered menus and dozens on buttons.

 

I'd prefer it that way and do without some esoteric functions I would only use once a year.

 

Doug spends his life taking photos of small things with manually focussed telephoto lenses often against much lighter backgrounds so the current EVF behaviour makes his job a lot harder, and I am sure if you bought an SL solely to do this it would drive you nuts. *

 

I'd be very surprised if the next firmware iteration doesn't include a fix for this particular issue ..... but I suspect it will be a menu option rather than some assignable toggleable button control (which would be the best solution). 

 

* having said that, I use spot metering for similar shots and dial in a bit of ev compensation as required and have not had much of an issue ..... I suppose a lot of this comes down to what you are used to ..... and if you already have a method that works better then stepping backwards is a real pain.  

Edited August 14, 2016 by thighslapper

[eprom]

Thanks a lot for all your comments, some of them were really helpful.

I´m working as an advertising photographer doing mostly people-shoots and want to replace all my Nikon stuff. I own the expensive f1,4 - line of Nikon primes but to be honest, I can´t use them wider than 2,5 max aperture because of the poor IQ on my D800E and D810.

For high-ress needs I shoot with a S-E and for shooting faster situation where 24MP is enough I want the SL.

I always work in manual-mode and set my time and aperture manual for every situation. It is an absolutely no go when the camera switches after every shutter release to an other brightness in the EVF, this would drive me nuts.

So you see, everybody has different needs and a modern camera with claims to be a pro-camera must be adjustable to everybodys need.

 

Just my thoughts.

Best,

Peter__

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

Thanks a lot for all your comments, some of them were really helpful.

I´m working as an advertising photographer doing mostly people-shoots and want to replace all my Nikon stuff. I own the expensive f1,4 - line of Nikon primes but to be honest, I can´t use them wider than 2,5 max aperture because of the poor IQ on my D800E and D810.

For high-ress needs I shoot with a S-E and for shooting faster situation where 24MP is enough I want the SL.

I always work in manual-mode and set my time and aperture manual for every situation. It is an absolutely no go when the camera switches after every shutter release to an other brightness in the EVF, this would drive me nuts.

So you see, everybody has different needs and a modern camera with claims to be a pro-camera must be adjustable to everybodys need.

 

Just my thoughts.

Best,

Peter__

 

I understand how you feel.

 

The EVF behaviour where it changes after each shot (in M mode on camera) is only with TTL flashes. Something Leica need to fix ASAP. The status is better but not perfect, with studio lights and natural light. It's not ideal behaviour but it's not changing after each shot.

 

I manual mode without flash and with non-TTL strobes you get exposure preview on a half press of the shutter button (if that function is enabled). I really like that the SL (and M) work this way *when* I'm shooting interiors and when I'm working on a tripod, which is over half of my work week. It allows you to have a bright viewfinder for focusing and framing and then by lightly touching the shutter button a decent exposure preview. As far as I know only Leica have this half press function. I've not seen it on any other brand. It's not a mode I'd like to give up.

 

At a wedding I prefer the Sony approach where it's live exposure preview all the time as the environment is too dynamic for the thing changing as I touch the shutter button and I'm working outdoors. With the SL I've gotten used to working in A mode, although I wish the option to have constant exposure preview were also available in manual.

 

In studio or a reception room I turn the function off because I'm not using ambient light so much for my exposures and I love the bright image and EVF can give me in a dim room.

 

So all of the modes are useful. Personally I have no preference because I use all of them. I'd just like to be able to choose where and when I use each mode rather than having Leica do it for me as that doesn't always suit the way I shoot. The other issue is that the whole camera changes behaviour depending which mode you're in. That's just a terrible design decision when you want to operate your camera instinctively. Maybe Leica think people only stick with one mode during a shoot. They'd be wrong.

 

But because of the recent update for the M that did exactly that I have great hope that Leica will do the same for the SL in the next update.

 

You should definitely email Leica about what you need though. They seem to be somewhat responsive to making improvements that they're asked for.

 

Gordon