ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Share #1 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Guys, Many probably already know this, so feel free to disregard, but profiles got mentioned as an aside in another thread and it seems like some at least are not aware of this point. I know this has been covered before in threads, but figured it couldn't hurt to mention it again with examples Unlike most RAW files (eg Canon / Nikon) DNG files can contain a camera profile, and the Leica files do indeed contain one. It is not used by lightroom by default (default is 'Adobe Standard'), but you can tell Lightroom to use the embedded profile. Most colours are (very) similar, and depending on the scene, the image may look identical under both profiles, but bright greens are very different. I was pretty unhappy with the yellow-ish way that my M240 rendered bright greens until I noticed the embedded camera profile. I used to think that my Leica was just no good in strong light around grass!! They are rendered much more closely to how I remember the scene with the embedded profile. So if you want Leica colour by Leica, not Leica colour by Adobe, select the embedded profile. The example below, while not a great photo, shows the difference. It's not the most extreme example I've seen, but I can't find a better one right now. Adobe Standard top, Embedded bottom. Which you prefer is a matter of taste, but the Leica profile is closer to how the scene actually looked with my eyes. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited August 5, 2016 by ralphh 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/263217-leica-colour-in-lightroom/?do=findComment&comment=3091182'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 Hi ralphh, Take a look here Leica Colour in Lightroom. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Gregm61 Posted August 5, 2016 Share #2 Posted August 5, 2016 I use the embedded profile with my M262 files as well. What Adobe has not chosen to do yet, is create camera-specific profiles for Leica models like they do with other brands. There are multiple Adobe-created Olympus E-M1-specific profiles I can choose from in Adobe Camera raw when I want to use that camera. They just started doing that a short while back for Olympus models and have been providing Nikon and Canon users (I'm guessing others as well) with those going way back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share #3 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) They do, but they're not very accurate to be honest - the colours in adobe's versions look quite different from the same files developed with the 'same' profile in canon's DPP (which does very closely match the canon OOC jpegs) Edited August 5, 2016 by ralphh Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 5, 2016 Share #4 Posted August 5, 2016 For sunny greens : use an IR filter! The yellowish cast on the M240 is IR contamination. As for profiles, make your own, using te XRite Colorchecker Passport. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share #5 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) Interesting about the IR contamination, but the embedded profile sorts the yellows either way, so no need for a filter and in general I'd rather have Leica's version for how my camera should look than Adobe's. And I'm very happy not to use my colourchecker on my Leica - I like the fact that it looks different to my Canon (though I wasn't wild on the yellow greens - glad that's gone away). Besides, if you want to get really, really accurate about it, you need one per ISO level, per lens, per lighting situation. Much too much hard work Edited August 5, 2016 by ralphh Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 5, 2016 Share #6 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) For me, each pic stands on its own, with the only goal a worthy print. No such thing as one size fits all, although some presets (or custom profiles) are useful to consider options. Paper choice and profiles matter, too. It's about judgment, not accuracy or which company made what. YMMV. Jeff Edited August 5, 2016 by Jeff S 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share #7 Posted August 5, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Totally agree Jeff, but you always need a starting point, and having yellow grass is not a great starting point for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 5, 2016 Share #8 Posted August 5, 2016 Might benefit if goal is b/w conversion. Easy preset fix, too.....and more targeted than global profile. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 5, 2016 Share #9 Posted August 5, 2016 I've seen strong greens/yellows in pictures with a lot of greenery, but for those specific cases I have a Lightroom "Less green" preset (saturation -20 green, -10 yellow). I can achieve something similar by adjusting the Camera Calibration settings (e.g. Green Hue +15, Saturation -5). Interestingly, I use my own ColorChecker Passport profile which doesn't eliminate the problem. Not all my photos have grass in them, so I don't want it as a permanent adjustment. This isn't just a Leica issue. Look at many amateur shots: green grass can be lurid. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share #10 Posted August 5, 2016 I don't really understand - I wouldn't describe using the correct camera profile that Leica are providing for their camera as a 'fix' or an adjustment, it's just using the camera manufacturers provided settings. To say you rather use third party settings from another company, then and manually fix the problems that result from it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 5, 2016 Share #11 Posted August 5, 2016 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/189021-acr-embedded-vs-adobe-standard/ Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 5, 2016 Share #12 Posted August 5, 2016 Interesting about the IR contamination, but the embedded profile sorts the yellows either way, so no need for a filter and in general I'd rather have Leica's version for how my camera should look than Adobe's. And I'm very happy not to use my colourchecker on my Leica - I like the fact that it looks different to my Canon (though I wasn't wild on the yellow greens - glad that's gone away). Besides, if you want to get really, really accurate about it, you need one per ISO level, per lens, per lighting situation. Much too much hard work I find that it makes the M240 approach the M9 colour. But colour is a personal taste anyway. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share #13 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) Jeff I don't really see that thread about a different camera is hugely relevant. Perhaps you are suggesting using an M9 profile for even wronger colours for even more interesting b&w conversions? If you were highlighting the approach for manually creating a profile, then thanks, but I have a drive colour checker, and the software Edited August 5, 2016 by ralphh Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 5, 2016 Share #14 Posted August 5, 2016 And that's the problem....my approach relates to overall principles, not to any one image, let alone any one camera. The linked thread is entirely relevant to the concept, and to the basis for two profiles that you introduced here. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share #15 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) It perhaps does, but incomplete ones. Unless the green swatches on your colour checker have the same IR reflectivity as grass they will not correct it, as noted by Paul. A colour checker alone cannot guarantee to fix IR sensitivity. A colour checker and an IR filter as Jaapv suggests would certainly do it, but that is too much like hard work for me and I don't need 'perfect' colour, I just hated the yellow greens, and I am not a big fan of filters. From Jaapv's explanation of why greens appear yellow, which makes sense to me, I suspect the Adobe one was created in a lab, or just sensor profile data from the manufacturer, and the Leica one, knowing they had a weak IR filter was created to take account of that. I doubt that Leica created their profile based on a single image, and my own analysis was certainly not based on a single image either. Across a lage range of situations and lighting conditions I found the Adobe Standard, and embedded profiles to produce extremely similar results. The only really big difference I have found is that the Adobe one produces sunny greens that are clearly wrong as where the Leica one does not. If that is of no value to you then fine, but it may be of some value to some, hence th post. Edited August 5, 2016 by ralphh Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 5, 2016 Share #16 Posted August 5, 2016 I found out when a series of safari shots taken at noon turned up with a nearly incorrigible yellow/orange cast. Only shooting a profile the next year under similar light gave a reasonable result and the use of 486 filters eliminated the problem Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share #17 Posted August 5, 2016 Did you go back just to profile the light to fix last years photos? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 5, 2016 Share #18 Posted August 5, 2016 I don't really understand - I wouldn't describe using the correct camera profile that Leica are providing for their camera as a 'fix' or an adjustment, it's just using the camera manufacturers provided settings. To say you rather use third party settings from another company, then and manually fix the problems that result from it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. There are other aspects of the embedded profile, and of Adobe standard, that I don't like - embedded may be correct, but I prefer my own. But finding agreement on the correct colour among camera fans is a game only for the persevering. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 5, 2016 Share #19 Posted August 5, 2016 Did you go back just to profile the light to fix last years photos? It was a pleasant side effect 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphh Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share #20 Posted August 5, 2016 There are other aspects of the embedded profile, and of Adobe standard, that I don't like - embedded may be correct, but I prefer my own. But finding agreement on the correct colour among camera fans is a game only for the persevering. Fair enough Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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