Leica M3 variations - 2

[Pecole]

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Now, let us start with something that characterizes very early models of the M : the four exposed screws - two at the front and two at the back - securing the top-plate (two first photos).

The following image shows two different types of engravings on the speed dials.

Then come two photos of the image counters : the only "variation" is the Index, either a framed or a fillet triangle.

More typical are the marks on the rewind knob, illustrated on the sixth image : from left to right, a red slot in the centre (first type), then one red dot, and finally two red dots.

To follow, something normally not registered as a variation, since it differed following the market where the camera was sold : the diameter of the tripod thread on the bottom plate.

And to end this second series, the two different accessory shoe stop pins, D-shaped first, headless screw later.

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Pierre,

 

It is nice that you share so much of your knowledge & your photos of all of the parts of Leitz/Leica that you do.

 

The M3, like the M5, is a perfectly currently usable variant of an "M" camera that today has features & options not available with some other "M's".

 

It is nice to see you focus on it.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited July 26, 2016 by Michael Geschlecht

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[Leicaiste]

Another variation is the size of the spacer ring under the avance lever.

 

It was narrower on the first M3's.

 

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Edited February 24, 2017 by Leicaiste

[Pecole]

Another variation is the size of the spacer ring under the avance lever.

 

It was narrower on the first M3's.

 

M3 _advance_lever_ring.jpg

 

That's an interesting point, since it looks original and in no way linked to maintenance/repair intervention. Thanks, Leicaïste : my week-end will be busy comparing archives' photos - since I have no more M3 to "palp", unfortunately.

[AHAB]

Thank you very much for these M3 variation posts 
one question to the speed dials 
I have a speed dial 1 2 5 10 25 50 100 250 500 1000

but 

on my Leicameter MR4 I have the "newer" scale with ..... 30 60 125 .....

I will use the MR4 on the M3 - so I have different scales - will this work out well so will the setting 60 on the Leicameter MR4 also set 60 on the M3?

I am not sure if it is a real problem - just curious

Edited October 18, 2017 by AHAB

[luigi bertolotti]

Thank you very much for these M3 variation posts 

one question to the speed dials 

I have a speed dial 1 2 5 10 25 50 100 250 500 1000

but 

on my Leicameter MR4 I have the "newer" scale with ..... 30 60 125 .....

I will use the MR4 on the M3 - so I have different scales - will this work out well so will the setting 60 on the Leicameter MR4 also set 60 on the M3?

I am not sure if it is a real problem - just curious

AHAB  ... this has been discussed some days ago...  ... I hope you can be confident on the answers you did have : IT WORKS RIGHT... and in this page you have a further proof... look at Pecole 3rd picture, with the two speed dials (old and new scale) next to next : as you can see, the milled receptacle for Leicameter coupling is in the SAME "absolute" position... to say, in the old scale it is between 2 and 5... in the new scale is "almost at 4" : this means that the speeds on the Leicameter's dial are the REAL ones, no matters if the M3 is old or new scale.. to say when the Leicameter is set to 125, your M3 speed dial is set a bit over 100, towards 250, for example...   

 

Further expanations in this manual (MR, not MR4... but is the same in operation, only switch position changed)

:  http://www.butkus.org/chinon/flashes_meters/leica_meter_mr/leica_meter_mr.htm

BTW ..about your nickname... a further evolution of the Leicameter MR4 was prototyped by AFAB (USA)... .. was baptized as Leicameter D, but never went in production because Leitz had the M5 in mind...

 

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(courtesy of Leica Historica Italia)

Edited October 18, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[Pecole]

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It seems that my last year's contribution was sometimes useful. And your "Leica Historica Italia" images of the Leicameter prototype are quite interesting, Luigi. Thanks.

[AHAB]

yes you are right Luigi Bertolotti - I found this article and had it just on my cellphone - my mistake - I was confused about the pictures here but did not realize that the dials did not match the same position on the small pictures - so I thought the 1000 for example is quite different on one dial compared to the other - and this did not match the other answers -  my mistake - everything is fine as the dials do not match position and therefore it is not comparable - sorry for re-asking - will check twice in the future 

BTW thank you very much for sharing the information on the Leicameter D
 

AHAB  ... this has been discussed some days ago...  ... I hope you can be confident on the answers you did have : IT WORKS RIGHT... and in this page you have a further proof... look at Pecole 3rd picture, with the two speed dials (old and new scale) next to next : as you can see, the milled receptacle for Leicameter coupling is in the SAME "absolute" position... to say, in the old scale it is between 2 and 5... in the new scale is "almost at 4" : this means that the speeds on the Leicameter's dial are the REAL ones, no matters if the M3 is old or new scale.. to say when the Leicameter is set to 125, your M3 speed dial is set a bit over 100, towards 250, for example...   

 

Further expanations in this manual (MR, not MR4... but is the same in operation, only switch position changed)

:  http://www.butkus.org/chinon/flashes_meters/leica_meter_mr/leica_meter_mr.htm

BTW ..about your nickname... a further evolution of the Leicameter MR4 was prototyped by AFAB (USA)... .. was baptized as Leicameter D, but never went in production because Leitz had the M5 in mind...

 

Leicameter D - prototype.jpg

 

(courtesy of Leica Historica Italia)

Edited October 19, 2017 by AHAB

[a.noctilux]

AHAB, as side note using Leicameter MR4 on M3 with "100" scale, I use the clic on the M3.

As you know that only "clic positions" of dial give the "right" shutter speeds.

Intermediate positions are not meant to be set/used.

 

As the MR4 has analog markings for aperture, set the aperture on the lens as usual with other Leica M.

 

...

More M3 details.

I have first batch M3, and the wind-on lever is shorter than later M3.

And the first rewind lever (near front "R") is longer than later M3.

Edited October 20, 2017 by a.noctilux

[AHAB]

Thank you very much for the details on the "click positions" 
I will use them end no intermediate posistions
 

AHAB, as side note using Leicameter MR4 on M3 with "100" scale, I use the clic on the M3.

As you know that only "clic positions" of dial give the "right" shutter speeds.

Intermediate positions are not meant to be set/used.

 

As the MR4 has analog markings for aperture, set the aperture on the lens as usual with other Leica M.

 

...

More M3 details.

I have first batch M3, and the wind-on lever is shorter than later M3.

And the first rewind lever (near front "R") is longer than later M3.

[jerzy]

in his  research from 1998 Dr Bawendi identified not less than 80 variations of early M3 (700001-963xxx), some of them are shown above.

In case of interest drop me PM (or contact directly at jerzy.w@gmx.net)

[Martin B]

Just came across this post now, very interesting indeed! I am not a collector, but I got a M3 just a few months ago. 

 

- No back screws to secure the top-plate

- my M3 has the 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250 engravings

- framed triangle image counter (not filled)

- Two dots on the rewind knob

- larger tripod thread (3/8")

- headless screw in the hotshoe

 

My M3 was made in 1957 as DS model, and very likely sold in Hungary at the time (judging from the told history which the camera and its former owner had).

Serial# is 842 942. Does anybody know if such easily recognizable serial number increases the (collector) value of this camera? 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Martin B

[Pecole]

Just came across this post now, very interesting indeed! I am not a collector, but I got a M3 just a few months ago. 

 

- No back screws to secure the top-plate

- my M3 has the 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250 engravings

- framed triangle image counter (not filled)

- Two dots on the rewind knob

- larger tripod thread (3/8")

- headless screw in the hotshoe

 

My M3 was made in 1957 as DS model, and very likely sold in Hungary at the time (judging from the told history which the camera and its former owner had).

Serial# is 842 942. Does anybody know if such easily recognizable serial number increases the (collector) value of this camera? 

I had nº843234 (illustrated above) in my collection, also a dual stroke M3 dating 1956. My speed sequence seems different of yours, since it has B first and ends with 500 and 1000. As far as I can judge based on what you say, your M3 has nothing special.

[luigi bertolotti]

^{Looking at the first couple of pictures from Pecole, I did notice a detail which  wasn't well in my mind... the front lever for rewind setting... which one is the "definitive" ? The short or the long one ?}

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[105012]

^{Looking at the first couple of pictures from Pecole, I did notice a detail which  wasn't well in my mind... the front lever for rewind setting... which one is the "definitive" ? The short or the long one ?}

LeicaM3_shortrewind.jpg

 

LeicaM3_longrewind.jpg

 

 

Hi Luigi

 

Maybe only the earliest? Anyway my transitional (Single stroke, spring mechanism) M3's (1958 and 1959) both have the longer one.

 

Cheers

Edited October 23, 2017 by 105012

[Pecole]

^{Looking at the first couple of pictures from Pecole, I did notice a detail which  wasn't well in my mind... the front lever for rewind setting... which one is the "definitive" ? The short or the long one ?}

LeicaM3_shortrewind.jpg

 

LeicaM3_longrewind.jpg

I checked my files, and discovered that only earlier models had the long lever. All more recent ones, at least the 21 I had between nº 985116 and 1140695, were all with short lever. So, I believe the short one is the "definitive".

[jaapv]

I’m not at home now, so IIRC, but Jonathan Eastland shows a number of rewind levers, including prototypes, in his book.

[Martin B]

I had nº843234 (illustrated above) in my collection, also a dual stroke M3 dating 1956. My speed sequence seems different of yours, since it has B first and ends with 500 and 1000. As far as I can judge based on what you say, your M3 has nothing special.

 

Thanks, I didn't fully wrote it up in my earlier post - my speed dial of course also has the B, 500, and 1000 engravings (only mentioned the ones which can be different in the earlier mentioned photos). 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Martin B

[TomB_tx]

The M2 needed a shorter rewind lever than the M3 used originally due to the different shape of its top cover. So Leica just standardized on the shorter one for both models - so sometime after the M2 was introduced (1957?).

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jc_braconi]

M3 modifications.pdfHoping this document is not difficult to use :