Let's dream Large, let's talk 8854

[AndreasAM]

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When talking recently on this forum about the upcoming Hasselblad X1D and the pixel count of the future S-system and now the M, members were saying I fantasized to much about what would never be.......

 

Well, what is the position of Leica these days:

1. They, finally, have (re-)positioned themselves as a serious player in developing state of the art (electronics and viewfinder) camera-technology, see the latest SL, S and Q. Albeit in relative small, but exclusive corners of the market, for demanding (pro-)customers who are willing to pay a high price for outstanding quality and unique products.
2. They have an original view, but also a deep understanding on how the ergonomics and user interface of a camera should be made, dependent on the use of the camera, see the T, M and S/SL.
3. There M is unique and with the Rangefinder they own the market. The development of new M is therefore slow and evolutionary but, in the end, it will be going to be a two way street; keeping it original with an Opto-Mechanical Rangefinder and going full digital with an Opto-Electronic Rangefinder. Here Leica is very careful not to lose their faithful customer base, the core Leica user. So the latter option, the digital OERF is, perhaps, something for the coming years, when sales of the original M with an Optical Range Finder begins to stall.
4. The lenses, for each available type of camera are among the best you can buy. New available systems, like the SL, shows that Leica is capable of innovating in lens design for the digital era and this provides new and much needed expanded sales, independent of the M-system.
5. The Medium Format camera development is currently in a flux. Sensor development is following the same steps of the FF-sensor. From CCD to CMOS type and more Megapixels. Only the sensor size is not fixed yet and is now developing in two variants, the 44x33 mm and the 54x40 mm., stamped as full frame MF-sensor. Almost all makers are taking their sensors from Sony now. Leica is going, again as with almost all their sensors, their own way, with an 45x30 mm from a independent sensor maker. 
6. The demand  by customers and media for a lot more of Megapixels, is so far ignored by Leica for the existing systems. 
7. Leica is keeping their pixel size for the M, Q, SL and S at 6 ūm, to preserve and improve the high quality of the signal, to keep the noise levels low and the pixel well as big as possible to accommodate steep light rays of the M- and UWA-lenses.
8. Leica is now making systems for APS-C, FF and MF, almost all existing system ranges
9. Leica is prepared to take risks, putting camera's on the market for a small niche, see the Monochrome and the M-D. But Leica knows exactly what this niche is and how to make money out of it, with relative small sales numbers but apparently with a high profit margin.
10. There were rumors floating around of filling in the demand for technical lenses like the 3 Tilt Shift lenses for the SL. So far they are only rumors. Plans for a T/S 30 mm. lens for the Leica S, are apparently abandoned by Leica without further explanation.
11. They bought Sinar, a few years ago, but still no obvious products are coming from this division, yet. They can't be sitting on their hands over there, are they?

 

Leica is eager to fill all the bases in the land of photography, they stress this at every presentation of a new camera system. So what's still missing in the line up of Leica (/Sinar) is a large or bigger (medium) format or technical system camera with a high(er) pixel count.

 

Some considerations about such a camera system;

1. Digital technical camera's and large format camera's are hitting a wall in development at the moment. The limiting size of the current available MF-sensors makes it difficult to develop UWA lenses or lenses with a big diameter for movements, suitable for high quality digital imaging in landscape/architecture or (less so) product and reproduction.
2. The digital technical camera is currently so dependent on the development of the sensor that, as I understand it, sales have slumped and lens makers are leaving this market. Photographers of architecture are forced to use the UWA 35mm. TSE lenses from Canon, even on a MFDB. 
3. The direction of the development of technical camera's is in limbo. Yet there is a professional and prosumer market out there still demanding state of the art equipment, therefore there is a vacuum, a possible small but very high end niche market for the take.
4. Don't expect (traditional) large format, digital sensors, (larger than 54x 40 mm.) in the near future by the bigger camera manufacturers (read Sony). These sensors would be, at the current stage of technology, not possible or attractive to produce by the current big sensor makers (read Sony). The market is small. So this is left to independent sensor makers.
5. ​Instead of Leica incorporating the high pixel count in every system camera, even when not justified, Leica can cater this demand in a new system with the suitable specifications for the target user, like they did with the SL, the Monochrome, the M-D and thus keeping the existing (or core M-) systems intact and conceptual pure. It is Leica's way of solving a specific demand in the market and they can in the mean time incorporate all kind of specific qualities of existing systems or introduce new techniques.

 

Let's dream big!

 

Is it possible to consider the development of a larger size, than the current full frame MF - sensor size of 54x40 mm? A sensor which can cater for the known real advantages of a large format camera, a sensor with a big pixel size (> 6 ūm), a high but manageable pixel count, let's say between 50 and 100 Mp, a sensor size big enough for enabling UWA lenses and movements with the upmost digital image quality.

It should be integrated in a camera system which is relative portable, thus mirrorless, but also really suited for tripod use (the target use). It should be provided with the nice EVF of the SL. 

The lenses should have a leave shutter to prevent shutter shock, with aperture and focus rings like the Q. Instead of Auto Focus, MF should be integrated with the Opto-Electronic rangefinder (also to test the waters for the digital M) and TTL. All this to keep the lenses small and very useable on a technical camera, with all the markings as on a M-lens.

There should be a smart lens adapter for (big) movements. So a big lens diameter is needed or a crop factor integrated in the adapter, like the HT/S 1.5 from Hasselblad. In the latter option. To get the ultimate image quality the bigger the sensor the easier the solution!

 

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The older 6x9 format could give us all the benefits and demands stated above. 90x60 mm. gives the Leica preferred 3x2 ratio, 4 times the size of a S-sensor, It's size gives an ample square and pano option

With an 108 mm. throat diameter, the focal lengths 50, 70, 90 and 125 and mm. f.e. gives 20, 28, 36 and 50 mm. equivalents and has plenty of UWA-room for integrating a crop factor when movements are required (a FL of 40 mm. gives a 24 mm. equivalent with movements!), unlike current Hasselblad options.

 

Now let's talk pixel count. The current 6x6 ūm used by Leica would give 144 Mp.,which in my opinion, is currently not manageable as a file and give al kinds of problems in taking a picture without blur. An 8x8 ūm pixel would give 84,5 Mp. Exactly the right amount I would think. The pixel size is bigger to ensure big wells for catching enough photons for a higher DR and to suite the steep light rays of the UWA lenses. 

 

 

So 8 by 8 for a pixel and 6x9 makes 54?

 

Oh no, are we talking about 8854!

 

Let's call it Leica L

 

[mjh]

Leica numerology gone wrong.

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[FrozenInTime]

A pure play video camera ?  8k PL mount etc.

 

http://leicarumors.com/2016/07/18/leica-rumored-to-announce-a-new-line-of-m-cinema-lenses.aspx/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LeicaRumors+%28LeicaRumors.com%29

[AndreasAM]

Leica numerology gone wrong.

Okay, let's dampen the expectations about the possible increase of the future size of a sensor and "get the numbers correct".

 

Following the reasoning of my statements above at the start of the thread, Leica can improve the pixel count of the Leica S with a sensor with the same available technology as the 100 MP Sony sensor as used by the Hasselblad H6D-100 and the Phase One, but by a independent sensor maker.

 

For a 3x2 ratio this would mean a Full Frame Medium Format camera, with a sensor 54x36 mm., 88 Mp, pixel size 4,7x4,7 üm.

 

Would be a camera for professional use, new formfactor (again mirrorless?), portable but more tripod bound, new mount and lenses.

 

Photokina, as announced today, is for Leica all about professional use, with the special attention for the S, with a Sinar involvement?

Edited July 21, 2016 by AndreasAM

[AndreasAM]

.........

For a 3x2 ratio this would mean a Full Frame Medium Format camera, with a sensor 54x36 mm., 88 Mp, pixel size 4,7x4,7 üm.

........

It is a numbers game after all:

 

Also possible is a sensor 54x36 mm., 54 Mp, pixel size as usual 6x6 üm, 9000x6000 pixels

[earleygallery]

Another new system? Most unlikely I'd say.

[Ole Fasmer]

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I hope it will be a combined set of a camera and a digital back. The numbers could indicate a sensor size of 88x 54 mm., that's the good old 6/9 format from the film days. It would go well with Leicas commitment to the pro segment in this years Photokina. The sensor size could facilitate the use of large format cameras and lenses. Shift and tilt would be possible again, today's sensor sizes are way to small.

The camera could be in the style of the fujis or other 6/9 rangefinder film cameras. A Evf Finder would be nice, maybe a combined finder like the modern digital fujis.

[AndreasAM]

Well, well.....

 

Sinar is coming out of hibernation!

 

http://leicarumors.com/2016/08/30/sinar-is-planning-to-unveil-new-products-at-photokina-2016.aspx/#more-41524

 

They state in the press release:

 

"New Sinar products show cooperative synergies achieved with Leica."

 

Whatever that means.......

 

Possibly a (electronic) coupling of the Leica S or SL with a new Sinar Body/adapter with (big) movements and special new lenses with a big CoC?

Edited August 30, 2016 by AndreasAM

[Otto_Fosch]

When talking recently on this forum about the upcoming Hasselblad X1D and the pixel count of the future S-system and now the M, members were saying I fantasized to much about what would never be.......

 

Well, what is the position of Leica these days:

1. They, finally, have (re-)positioned themselves as a serious player in developing state of the art (electronics and viewfinder) camera-technology, see the latest SL, S and Q. Albeit in relative small, but exclusive corners of the market, for demanding (pro-)customers who are willing to pay a high price for outstanding quality and unique products.
2. They have an original view, but also a deep understanding on how the ergonomics and user interface of a camera should be made, dependent on the use of the camera, see the T, M and S/SL.
3. There M is unique and with the Rangefinder they own the market. The development of new M is therefore slow and evolutionary but, in the end, it will be going to be a two way street; keeping it original with an Opto-Mechanical Rangefinder and going full digital with an Opto-Electronic Rangefinder. Here Leica is very careful not to lose their faithful customer base, the core Leica user. So the latter option, the digital OERF is, perhaps, something for the coming years, when sales of the original M with an Optical Range Finder begins to stall.
4. The lenses, for each available type of camera are among the best you can buy. New available systems, like the SL, shows that Leica is capable of innovating in lens design for the digital era and this provides new and much needed expanded sales, independent of the M-system.
5. The Medium Format camera development is currently in a flux. Sensor development is following the same steps of the FF-sensor. From CCD to CMOS type and more Megapixels. Only the sensor size is not fixed yet and is now developing in two variants, the 44x33 mm and the 54x40 mm., stamped as full frame MF-sensor. Almost all makers are taking their sensors from Sony now. Leica is going, again as with almost all their sensors, their own way, with an 45x30 mm from a independent sensor maker. 
6. The demand  by customers and media for a lot more of Megapixels, is so far ignored by Leica for the existing systems. 
7. Leica is keeping their pixel size for the M, Q, SL and S at 6 ūm, to preserve and improve the high quality of the signal, to keep the noise levels low and the pixel well as big as possible to accommodate steep light rays of the M- and UWA-lenses.
8. Leica is now making systems for APS-C, FF and MF, almost all existing system ranges
9. Leica is prepared to take risks, putting camera's on the market for a small niche, see the Monochrome and the M-D. But Leica knows exactly what this niche is and how to make money out of it, with relative small sales numbers but apparently with a high profit margin.
10. There were rumors floating around of filling in the demand for technical lenses like the 3 Tilt Shift lenses for the SL. So far they are only rumors. Plans for a T/S 30 mm. lens for the Leica S, are apparently abandoned by Leica without further explanation.
11. They bought Sinar, a few years ago, but still no obvious products are coming from this division, yet. They can't be sitting on their hands over there, are they?

 

Leica is eager to fill all the bases in the land of photography, they stress this at every presentation of a new camera system. So what's still missing in the line up of Leica (/Sinar) is a large or bigger (medium) format or technical system camera with a high(er) pixel count.

 

Some considerations about such a camera system;

1. Digital technical camera's and large format camera's are hitting a wall in development at the moment. The limiting size of the current available MF-sensors makes it difficult to develop UWA lenses or lenses with a big diameter for movements, suitable for high quality digital imaging in landscape/architecture or (less so) product and reproduction.
2. The digital technical camera is currently so dependent on the development of the sensor that, as I understand it, sales have slumped and lens makers are leaving this market. Photographers of architecture are forced to use the UWA 35mm. TSE lenses from Canon, even on a MFDB. 
3. The direction of the development of technical camera's is in limbo. Yet there is a professional and prosumer market out there still demanding state of the art equipment, therefore there is a vacuum, a possible small but very high end niche market for the take.
4. Don't expect (traditional) large format, digital sensors, (larger than 54x 40 mm.) in the near future by the bigger camera manufacturers (read Sony). These sensors would be, at the current stage of technology, not possible or attractive to produce by the current big sensor makers (read Sony). The market is small. So this is left to independent sensor makers.
5. ​Instead of Leica incorporating the high pixel count in every system camera, even when not justified, Leica can cater this demand in a new system with the suitable specifications for the target user, like they did with the SL, the Monochrome, the M-D and thus keeping the existing (or core M-) systems intact and conceptual pure. It is Leica's way of solving a specific demand in the market and they can in the mean time incorporate all kind of specific qualities of existing systems or introduce new techniques.

 

Let's dream big!

 

Is it possible to consider the development of a larger size, than the current full frame MF - sensor size of 54x40 mm? A sensor which can cater for the known real advantages of a large format camera, a sensor with a big pixel size (> 6 ūm), a high but manageable pixel count, let's say between 50 and 100 Mp, a sensor size big enough for enabling UWA lenses and movements with the upmost digital image quality.

It should be integrated in a camera system which is relative portable, thus mirrorless, but also really suited for tripod use (the target use). It should be provided with the nice EVF of the SL. 

The lenses should have a leave shutter to prevent shutter shock, with aperture and focus rings like the Q. Instead of Auto Focus, MF should be integrated with the Opto-Electronic rangefinder (also to test the waters for the digital M) and TTL. All this to keep the lenses small and very useable on a technical camera, with all the markings as on a M-lens.

There should be a smart lens adapter for (big) movements. So a big lens diameter is needed or a crop factor integrated in the adapter, like the HT/S 1.5 from Hasselblad. In the latter option. To get the ultimate image quality the bigger the sensor the easier the solution!

 

Fujica 690 Professional.jpg

 

The older 6x9 format could give us all the benefits and demands stated above. 90x60 mm. gives the Leica preferred 3x2 ratio, 4 times the size of a S-sensor, It's size gives an ample square and pano option

With an 108 mm. throat diameter, the focal lengths 50, 70, 90 and 125 and mm. f.e. gives 20, 28, 36 and 50 mm. equivalents and has plenty of UWA-room for integrating a crop factor when movements are required (a FL of 40 mm. gives a 24 mm. equivalent with movements!), unlike current Hasselblad options.

 

Now let's talk pixel count. The current 6x6 ūm used by Leica would give 144 Mp.,which in my opinion, is currently not manageable as a file and give al kinds of problems in taking a picture without blur. An 8x8 ūm pixel would give 84,5 Mp. Exactly the right amount I would think. The pixel size is bigger to ensure big wells for catching enough photons for a higher DR and to suite the steep light rays of the UWA lenses. 

 

 

So 8 by 8 for a pixel and 6x9 makes 54?

 

Oh no, are we talking about 8854!

 

Let's call it Leica L

 

The new Leica Sofort instant camera? There will be also a Leica branded color and black and white instant film

 

The camera can work also with instax mini film: Film Size:  86 x 54 mm

 

see datasheet

 

 

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/instant_photo/pdf/instax_mini_datasheet.pdf

[AndreasAM]

The new Leica Sofort instant camera? There will be also a Leica branded color and black and white instant film

 

The camera can work also with instax mini film: Film Size: 86 x 54 mm

 

see datasheet

 

 

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/instant_photo/pdf/instax_mini_datasheet.pdf

Well 86x54 doesn't explain the 8854 number of a new Leica camera...

We can't be sloppy in calling the numbers now can we!!

 

My post isn't so much about finding an explanation for the '8854' number, but rooting for a larger than current full frame MF sensor to really take advantage of all the MF qualities and advantages and open up a path for a state of the art, digital and mirrorless portable technical camera. Sinar/Leica can/should take its place at the forefront, alongside Phase One and Hasselblad, in the technical development of the MF-format system.

 

Perhaps not this year then next year...

 

Let's see in the coming week what Sinar/Leica has to offer for this (professional) niche.

Edited September 13, 2016 by AndreasAM