B+W images from SL vs 246 vs sony A7r II?

[Docderm]

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I have recently gotten interested in making high-quality black-and-white images.

 

Can anyone share their experience comparing output images from the above 3 cameras?

 

I currently own the Leica SL and the Sony A7rii. Would I see a sharper, more beautifully toned b+w images If I buy the 246?

 

On one hand the 246 has a dedicated black-and-white sensor with 24 megapixels.

 

On the other hand the SL has a color 24 megapixel sensor and the Sony camera has a 42 megapixel color sensor which, supposedly in theory, will have less sharp images due to the need for interpolation of color pixels.

 

Which do you prefer? How have you found the various trade-offs workout in your actual experience of making find black-and-white images?

 

Thanks

DocDerm

Edited July 17, 2016 by Docderm

[Jeff S]

This b/w comparison of the M240 versus the two Monochrom versions may be useful...  http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/06/bw-iso-showdown-leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m-monochrom-m9-vs-m-typ-240/

 

Jeff

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[anickpick]

I was given the opportunity to try a A7R II for a couple of days in November 2015 and I do own the SL and the M246.

 

While I disliked the handling of the Sony I must admit that the files contained more details than my M246 files between ISO 100 and ISO 800.

ISO 800 and up the Sony started to show noise patterns that I did not like. ISO 1600 and up details went lost on the Sony and the M246 gained upper hand.

 

I much prefer the noise patterns of the SL compared to the noise patterns of the Sony.

 

I would say up to ISO 800 one gains almost nothing with the M246 in terms of details compared to the SL.

 

At higher ISOs, I would say noise wise the M246 is about one stop cleaner than the SL and one and a half stop cleaner than the Sony.

And in terms of retaining all the details, I would say the M246 is almost two stops better than the other two cameras.

I simply adore the M246 files at ISOs 1600 to 6400.

(I have no need for higher ISOs than 6400 - I believe at extremely high ISOs the SL as well as the Sony would again be better, as the M sensor is too dated).

 

Having said this, the M246 is more troublesome to shoot with in bright daylight: The high base ISO requires nd filters if you want to shoot wide open, even for summicrons. 

Additionally, the highlights are much more prone to be blown out. 

 

I wish Leica had implemented the sensor of the Q or SL in their 2015 and 2016 M releases...

Edited July 20, 2016 by anickpick

[Giulio Zanni]

I think that part of the argument should be if you want to shoot with an M or not. My 246s deliver great files up to 10000 iso, given that you nail the exposure. You can get very good black and white also by converting colour files of other cameras. I personally want to shoot with an M and I don't want to go through the conversion process, I want to see my raw files in black and white straight out of the camera. I used to own the A7r but when converting the files and start messing with postprocessing I was not as happy as I am with the 246 files.

[algrove]

Sometimes I prefer my M240 conversions over my M246 files. Either way I must PP both files so it does not create huge differences in the end. I must admit I tend to most often shoot at base ISO with either the M240 or M246.

 

Question to those A7RII users. Do you convert and also process in SEFEX Pro? If so how do those files shot at base ISO compare with the M246 files shot at base ISO? 

[EoinC]

I have a M246, and an A7R (original version). The A7R is useful for other things (I have it set up on a macro rail currently, and also use it for waterdrop photography), but I prefer using my M246. The downside of the Monochrom (for me) is the high base ISO, and the way it handles (or doesn't handle) highlights. Shadow-recovery is excellent, though, and I like the WYSIWYG of the images, usually requiring little post-processing.

[albireo_double]

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Perhaps the answer to all you guys who don't like how the M246 handles highlights - try the old Leica lenses from the 1960s. Sharp like a knife but with much less contrast than modern lenses. In particular, the following trio rocks on the M246 - Summicron 50 v2 (rigid), Summicron 35 v1 (8 element), Elmar 90/4 (triplet). Wonderful tonality, mellower transitions and better retention of highlights. In comparison, the latest M lenses produce very high contrast which is great on the M240 but trickier on the M246, in my view. I would even say that I prefer the 50 v2 rigid to the 50 APO on the M246 (and the latter is the best M lens Leica say they have ever made).

[jaapv]

One of the best choices is the Canon 1.8/50 LTM. Razor sharp even wide open and lovely tones. Dirt cheap too

[Belle123]

Perhaps the answer to all you guys who don't like how the M246 handles highlights - try the old Leica lenses from the 1960s. Sharp like a knife but with much less contrast than modern lenses. In particular, the following trio rocks on the M246 - Summicron 50 v2 (rigid), Summicron 35 v1 (8 element), Elmar 90/4 (triplet). Wonderful tonality, mellower transitions and better retention of highlights. In comparison, the latest M lenses produce very high contrast which is great on the M240 but trickier on the M246, in my view. I would even say that I prefer the 50 v2 rigid to the 50 APO on the M246 (and the latter is the best M lens Leica say they have ever made).

Am with you on the older lenses. They just render beautifully on the 246, whereas my newer lenses don't as too sharp and too high contrast. It frankly surprised me. When I slip back on one of the newer Aspherical lenses, I get less keepers. So, for me, sticking now to the three older lenses I have....Notilux v1, Summicron 35 v4, Summicron 50 v4 on the 246. And having traded in my 240 for the Q, the 246 now my only M, my newer lenses on the chopping block. I am getting the Hasselblad coming out, and shall be interesting how that compares in conversion to the 246.

[R3D-D0T]

The base ISO of the Monochrom probably means the camera is best used when lighting conditions are less than ideal. But if you're mostly day-time, why not just go with a color leica or SL?

[Belle123]

The base ISO of the Monochrom probably means the camera is best used when lighting conditions are less than ideal. But if you're mostly day-time, why not just go with a color leica or SL?

Well, no, that isn't a reason to just go for color. The mm1 and Mm2 have other attributes that for many make it the primo camera for monochrome. But not for everyone.

[Giulio Zanni]

I am getting the Hasselblad coming out, and shall be interesting how that compares in conversion to the 246.

 

 

I am afraid that's going to be a tough call for the 246. You can't really compare a 24 mpx camera with a 50 mpx camera with almost unlimited bulb mode (which says something on the already proven quality of the sensor). But then there are other elements into the equation, the Hassy will have only two/three lens available and the lenses for the H system are big and bulky. With the M you'll have a widest range of lenses + all the good R lenses that nowadays are reasonably priced. I think the Hassy will be more for landscape and fine art shooting, which is what I am doing, but for the moment I will stick to my 246s and see if Leica comes up with a new M (I don't find the SL interesting at that price point).

Edited August 19, 2016 by giulioz

[Belle123]

I am afraid that's going to be a tough call for the 246. You can't really compare a 24 mpx camera with a 50 mpx camera with almost unlimited bulb mode (which says something on the already proven quality of the sensor). But then there are other elements into the equation, the Hassy will have only two/three lens available and the lenses for the H system are big and bulky. With the M you'll have a widest range of lenses + all the good R lenses that nowadays are reasonably priced. I think the Hassy will be more for landscape and fine art shooting, which is what I am doing, but for the moment I will stick to my 246s and see if Leica comes up with a new M (I don't find the SL interesting at that price point).

Yes,I really only mean will be interesting how it compares in B/w, specifically in tones and shadows. Not really pitting the two cameras against each other as will probably never give up my M lenses have accumulated over 20 years and so far the 246 is best M ever for me. It is a serious keeper unless Leica makes a newer version, and I have no interest in the next M until they make a newer monochrome. What I suspect is the M will do as well or better, since on the Hassy will be doing conversion. Never owned a digital Hasselblad, so very excited to see how it performs, adding it to my camera collection. Me also, not interested in the SL.

[wilfredo]

I put in an order for a Sony A7RII and currently own the original CCD sensor Monochrom (whatever that type is).  I don't really expect the B&W images from the Sony to match the Monochrom in tonality, but I will certainly give it a go.  Let me express from the get go that I prefer a CCD sensor for Black and White photography; I find the tones closer to film, and less cold.  My primary purpose for the purchase of the SONY is to phase out my bulky Canon DSLR gear - for those ocassions when I want to shoot color.   I'm looking forward to seeing just how satisfied I will be after I use it for a while.

 

Some of my photography can be seen here.  Most of it was produced with the Leica Monochrome (CCD version).  www.ReligionIsGarbage.com

[jaapv]

I am afraid that's going to be a tough call for the 246. You can't really compare a 24 mpx camera with a 50 mpx camera with almost unlimited bulb mode (which says something on the already proven quality of the sensor). But then there are other elements into the equation, the Hassy will have only two/three lens available and the lenses for the H system are big and bulky. With the M you'll have a widest range of lenses + all the good R lenses that nowadays are reasonably priced. I think the Hassy will be more for landscape and fine art shooting, which is what I am doing, but for the moment I will stick to my 246s and see if Leica comes up with a new M (I don't find the SL interesting at that price point).

Megapixels  are irrelevant in this case. The 246 resolves  the same higher than a 50 MP Bayer-filter camera for technical reasons.

[Giulio Zanni]

Some of my photography can be seen here.  Most of it was produced with the Leica Monochrome (CCD version).  www.ReligionIsGarbage.com

Very nice

[wilfredo]

Well, I received the Sony yesterday and have been playing around with it when I've gotten a chance, and I'm liking the B&W images more than I thought I would.  So far what I've gotten seems comparable to the CMOS version Monochrom based on the photos I've seen on this forum.  The resolution using an M lens is phenomenal. At some point I will do side by side comparisons with my Monochrom (CCD version).  These won't be scientific; they will be based on my usual PP and workflow.  The Canon will be sold (5DII).

[wilfredo]

Here's a shot of my friend who can be a comic (she's an actress) with the Sony and 90mm Hexanon M.  Looking forward to seeing what my 50mm Lux ASPH produces (I didn't have it in my bag today).  Again, there is nothing scientific about this; we all have our personal work flow and PP preferences.  

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[wilfredo]

Here's another portrait of a somewhat willing subject, this time using a 90mm Elmarit R with adapter on the SONY AR7II.  Both photos were PP as JPEGS.  The RAW files are awesome.  Again, this is not a technical review, just a representation based on my likes, but I hope it will give you an idea of what this camera can produce with minimal PP.  I am happily surprised.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

Wilfredo likes the files from a CMOS-based camera? 

 

Jeff