ironringer Posted June 26, 2016 Share #1 Posted June 26, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Could owners (are there users?) of the Russian copies of prewar Leicas back to at least Leica II, inform us how they are made? It must be expensive (materials and labour) to manufacture fake camera tops & lens parts, make special ("gold", brass) plating and engravings, add colourful vinyl body coverings, and retrofit everything to basic FED or ZORKI skeletons. So how do "they" (who?) do all that work and still sell a decent looking copy of a Leica for about $200? And, do these fake Russian cameras actually work? Are the shutters and lenses functional? What results are obtained? I am tempted to buy one and try it ... such as the "Leica II Camera, rare Vintage Russian collectables" currently on the big auction website. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 Hi ironringer, Take a look here How are Russian "Leica" copies made?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
willeica Posted June 26, 2016 Share #2 Posted June 26, 2016 A lot of the answers are here and in links off, particularly, the ones for Zorki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnogorsky_Zavod These were produced in State owned factories at a time when wage levels were very low. I have a Zorki Leica copy, which is a fine camera but not up to Leica levels of construction. Any non casual Leica collector would easily tell the difference. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Madureira Posted June 26, 2016 Share #3 Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) Good evenning I´m not talking about real Fed or Zorki cameras but about the "fake camera tops & lens parts, make special ("gold", brass) plating and engravings, add colourful vinyl body coverings" and its production cost and selling prices of the correntl ucranian fakes. There is a story, here in Portugal, which may explain the issue of costs and prices, I will try to translate, sorry for the bad translation: A man that used to sell some brooms at the fair for ten cents, saw another trader trying to sell brooms for five cents. He spoke to him asking how is that possible, because he need to steal wood cables, to steal iron straps and steal the brushes and still could not lower the price to not lost money. The other man replied that it is very easy, enough to steal the brooms ready. I have some soviet Leica copies, and they work, not in the same league of Leica, or Reid, or Canon or Nicca (I also have...) but they work. But I hate fakes "Fed Luftwaffe Leica" or polish brass "Luxuvki Zorki, or the like. Regards Antonio Edited June 26, 2016 by Antonio Madureira 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted June 26, 2016 Share #4 Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) I was just trying to explain the cost base and the origins. I agree that Soviet copies can be good and, in some cases, collectible. The 'rubbishy' Military items are based on these, but I would find it hard to understand how anyone with internet access could be taken in by such items. Certainly, anyone who has seen or handled a real Leica would not be fooled by such items. One giveaway to the uninformed is the shape of the rangefinder cam which will be round in the 'real thing' and have sharp edges in FSU copies. Some Leica copies can be even better as regards construction quality than the 'real thing'. I recently acquired a Reid and it is certainly better built than contemporary Leica items. It still needs a CLA because of its age, though. William Edited June 26, 2016 by willeica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 27, 2016 Share #5 Posted June 27, 2016 It must be expensive (materials and labour) to manufacture fake camera tops & lens parts, make special ("gold", brass) plating and engravings, add colourful vinyl body coverings, and retrofit everything to basic FED or ZORKI skeletons. So how do "they" (who?) do all that work and still sell a decent looking copy of a Leica for about $200? They can afford to make Leica copies because people in Russia or as was the Soviet Union take photographs. So they buy them to take photographs, thus it is economical to set up a factory to make the cameras. I think you are assuming the camera's are made simply for sale outside of Russia. But just as China makes cars that are copies of those made in capitalist countries (because this makes them aspirational) so a Leica copy isn't sold just to fool people with more money than sense, Westerners, but to be aspirational to native Russians. For sure the extra gold plating and fake insignia is to fool stupid uninformed capitalist pigs, but people collect Trabant's and that's no laughing matter either. Steve 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kangaroo2012 Posted July 1, 2016 Share #6 Posted July 1, 2016 There is a history of "fake" cameras in the old USSR. Jean Loup Princelle lists several in his book "The Authentic Guide to Russian and Soviet Cameras". Page 100. I have a Fed 1 with a Leica engraving that looks like a Leica 11 but feels like a Fed. One story is that they were made for the French Resistance forces during WW2 to fool German soldiers if resistance fighters were caught. Russian engravings were a give away and would result in death for the owner. In Moscow some years ago I saw more "Gold" Leicas than Ernst Leitz ever dreamed of making. Happy hunting. Philip Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted July 6, 2016 Share #7 Posted July 6, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Some of the copies offer additional functionality. For example, in addition to my IIIg I have a Nicca Series 5 that is virtually identical to my IIIg but has a back door, like my M3 has, that makes loading film much simpler and I don't need to cut the leader. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpattison Posted July 6, 2016 Share #8 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) Some Leica copies can be even better as regards construction quality than the 'real thing'. I recently acquired a Reid and it is certainly better built than contemporary Leica items. It still needs a CLA because of its age, though. William I believe the British officers who went into the Leitz works to review the set-up took the original blueprints of the IIIb and IIIc away so they could build a replica in England. The plans were mixed up, so eventually only a IIIb type replica was made. They were reproduced by the Reid & Sigrist company. Reid assumed the camera would have to work perfectly immediately, whereas Leitz did post build adjustments to each camera. This is why Reid cameras were built to finer tolerances. Leitz failed to reveal their plans for a camera with integrated focus and viewfinder, so they could get on with designing the M3! http://www.l39sm.co.uk/about_reid.php John Edited July 6, 2016 by jpattison Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted July 6, 2016 Share #9 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) All the Russian fake Leicas I've seen are old Fed or Zorki that have just had the covers reworked. This doesn't take a factory, just an individual or two with a small workshop. Fed actually took a new Leica II and copied it, with production started in 1934, which is about the time 3 Japanese started the Precision Optical Instrument Laboratory to copy the Leica. However, this Japanese effort proceeded slowly, and the surviving illustrations of the early models show a mix of Leica and Contax I features (winding knob on the front). Leica also got their patents issued in Japan, so they had to rethink the VF - RF design, but they did start production in the 1930s. Eventually their Kwanon became the Canon, so the Fed and Canon are the two oldest Leica copies. After the war when Leitz and Zeiss patents were voided, the real explosion of copies started. The Nicca was quite good. I don't have a type 5 with the back flap, but do have a type 33, which is like a IIIf but with rapid film advance lever. I also have a Tanack, which is like a IIIf, but with a fully hinged swing-open back. The Canons of the mid 50s (IV SB2 era) have a speed dial that still rotated, but could be set before winding the shutter - a feature which showed up on the original Asahi Pentax as well. So yes, the copies began to innovate, not just clone. Edited July 6, 2016 by TomB_tx 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted July 7, 2016 Share #10 Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) I am not sure the manufacture method, but I have finally failed to resist temptation and purchased a Zorki, Lieca II fake. It is the gold plated, lizard skinned Luftwaffe edition. In hand it feels the same as a Lieca, and appears very solid. Close inspection reveals the signature differences- most notably the configuration of the rangefinder mechanism- but the thing advances film and the shutter works. Furthermore, it looks and sounds like the shutter speeds are ok. The biggest, and most annoying, difference is that the film advance feels more like my grandmothers old pepper grinder. It feels so rough that it is hard to believe it continues to work.....But it does. One of the greater beauties of this thing is the fact that I do not feel compelled to handle with the same degree of reverence that a true Lieca warrants. When I received the camera the aperture selection ring was frozen solid....a condition that would have forced me to send a real Leitz lens off for repair and cleaing. But in the case of this lens, I simply applied a small amount of WD40 and let is seep in for a few hours. Magic, the ring moves like new now. I also wiped some 3in1 oil on the threads for the lens mount. It makes me feel pretty naughty. But hey! Who cares? It is a gold Zorki Luftwaffe fake. I can't wait to develop the roll of film. No question! If this thing actually exposes film properly, it was well worth the money. Edited July 7, 2016 by Wayne Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted July 7, 2016 Share #11 Posted July 7, 2016 ... a Zorki, Lieca II fake. ... A Freudian slip perhaps, Wayne? Pete. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted July 7, 2016 Share #12 Posted July 7, 2016 Certainly, and I am not a bit surprised: I have been misnaming and misspelling everything over the past couple of weeks. Fortunately, we are talking about an imposter in this thread. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted July 7, 2016 Share #13 Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) Maybe it would not be inappropriate to use this thread to list unique behavior associated with these less refined, fellow time travelers. Here are a couple things I have learned so far: 1. My Zorki does not tolerate nuance or vagary: If you wish to take a photograph you must press the button with authority. If the button is pressed in a gentle manner, it shrugs it off as if nothing is wanted, and forces you to wind to the next frame and try again.....With authority. 2. The frame counter will work, but only if you do not touch it in any manner during the roll. To touch the frame counter ring is to indicate you are not a precise person and do not deserve an accurate count. to be continued. Edited July 7, 2016 by Wayne Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 8, 2016 Share #14 Posted July 8, 2016 A big reason to produce fake cameras or copies( the Russians also produced fake watches which worked well in many cases) was to obtain foreign currency . They all worked better than the copy the Russians made of Concorde. When photographers covering the Korean war needed compatable lenses etc they found the Canon and Nikon copies of Leicas worked very well . Both Nikon and Canon have done rather well. BrianP Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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