Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[Jon Warwick]

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I think the SL has a focus on speed, whereas the new x1d seems more focused on higher image quality (large sensor, higher MP) in an incredibly compact body, and with vibration free leaf shutter. It reminds me of a smaller digital version of my Mamiya 7, one of my favorite cameras for travel / general family use / landscapes / cityscapes.

 

I can see myself moving to an x1d, it ticks a lot of boxes for my personal uses.

 

Importantly for me, I also much prefer the image shape that is typical of medium & large formats (compared to the 3x2 shape prevalent across all of Leica's ranges, including the S series).

Edited June 26, 2016 by Jon Warwick

[Spizzi]

What about the two caused you to consider them competitors?

 

Resolution is very different. Sensor size is very different. Speed is very different. Adaptability with legacy lenses is very different. Available system lenses are very different. 

 

Form factor is similar and both have EVFs. Other than that I don't see why I'd compare the two. 

 

Not intending to start an argument as I did have my mind set on a Leica

 

Right now, it has turned into a physical size requirement.  Yes, I get that technically they are two different animals, each with their own merit(s).  Let me back up though and give history of how I got to this point (of joining this forum).  I come from a Canon 1Ds3 and a bunch of L-lenses.  I travel a lot and, although I have plenty of young strength, I am tired of lugging the Canon factory on my shoulders.  I want something more portable without sacrificing image quality.  

 

So, after a long thoughtful process, I decided two weeks ago to offload my entire Canon setup in favor of Leica or equivalent.  <Poof> it was all sold on eBay. Gone.  

 

Right now I am in limbo. I am waiting for the next gen Leica M which is set for announcement at Photokina 2016 as that is more the form factor I desire - but I have never used a range finder, manual setup (Pros/Cons).  I'm willing to learn.

 

Or I could go after the SL but the size and weight becomes a factor again - I went to the local Leica boutique and was not entirely sold on the size, feel and weight of the SL with its native 24-90 lens attached - I could have just kept the Canon.  

 

For me it is a wait and see.  

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[LD_50]

Not intending to start an argument as I did have my mind set on a Leica

 

Right now, it has turned into a physical size requirement.  Yes, I get that technically they are two different animals, each with their own merit(s).  Let me back up though and give history of how I got to this point (of joining this forum).  I come from a Canon 1Ds3 and a bunch of L-lenses.  I travel a lot and, although I have plenty of young strength, I am tired of lugging the Canon factory on my shoulders.  I want something more portable without sacrificing image quality.  

 

So, after a long thoughtful process, I decided two weeks ago to offload my entire Canon setup in favor of Leica or equivalent.  <Poof> it was all sold on eBay. Gone.  

 

Right now I am in limbo. I am waiting for the next gen Leica M which is set for announcement at Photokina 2016 as that is more the form factor I desire - but I have never used a range finder, manual setup (Pros/Cons).  I'm willing to learn.

 

Or I could go after the SL but the size and weight becomes a factor again - I went to the local Leica boutique and was not entirely sold on the size, feel and weight of the SL with its native 24-90 lens attached - I could have just kept the Canon.  

 

For me it is a wait and see.  

 

Size and weight is usually more about lenses than bodies. You can go small with a Canon or Nikon kit if you shoot primes. Typically people compare system size with large f2.8 zoom lenses on one system and small primes on another. It sounds like you're doing this here if you're seeing a size and weight advantage with the Hasselblad. 

 

Canon 5DSR- 845g

Canon 85 f1.2- 1025g, f1.8 lens is 425g

Canon 35 f1.4 II- 760g, f2 lens is 335g

Canon 24-70 f2.8 II- 805g

 

Hasselblad X1D- 725g

90 XCD- 750g?

45 XCD- 475g

 

You can ultimately build a more capable (shooting speed, DOF control, AF speed) and cheaper, though lower IQ Canon kit without much weight penalty, if any. You have more lens options of various sizes, AF or MF, Canon, Zeiss, etc. A single 24-70 zoom covers the range offered by the Hasselblad. 

 

That at said the SL won't be offering small lenses anytime soon unless you shoot non system lenses. The 24-90 has mostly replaced use of my M lenses unless I need f1.4 or to go very small and light. IQ obviously won't approach the X1D but I'm pleased with my results at my final viewing size. Some have suggested a SL II with S mount but this makes little sense. If anything an SL II should offer more resolution. Perhaps the S typ 008 could incorporate an EVF option and much lower price as well. 

[IkarusJohn]

A camera like this would be more likely to replace much of my M system than the SL. 

 

The SL, for me, is about the zooms. The X1D would be about using compact primes and that fabulous sensor - AF? Hmm, not my preference.  EVF? Might be a deal killer if it isn't up to scratch. 

 

Otherwise, the option of SL with its large but fantastic zooms (and the option of using my M lenses) and the compact X1D with the AF 45mm lens does have appeal.

[Overgaard]

I think the Hasselblad X1D is more likely to compete with the Leica S.

 

A mirrorless Leica S would be something. As it is the large mirror in Leica S and MF results in shake below 1/250 second.  

[Adam]

Not sure if Hasselblad X1D will compete with the current S because of pixel size and size overall. The S seems to be more of studio camera, with fantastic IQ, but not something to walk around with. Those who use it do not seem to care about portability.  The X1D looks to me to be more of a portable MF, that can be used in a studio and outdoors hiking.  It definitely competes with the SL as far as I am concerned. I considered the SL as a complement the M40, but the X1D makes more sense to me, unless I decide to experiment with wildlife photography.

 

The X1D makes sense as a companion to the M since both express the same philosophy, great images in a compact body (assuming the X1D lives up to its hype). It does not replace the M because of the EVF. But if future M cameras abandon the OVF, I will hold on to M240 for as long as possible, and complement them with the X1D.

[IkarusJohn]

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Not sure if Hasselblad X1D will compete with the current S because of pixel size and size overall. The S seems to be more of studio camera, with fantastic IQ, but not something to walk around with. Those who use it do not seem to care about portability.  The X1D looks to me to be more of a portable MF, that can be used in a studio and outdoors hiking.  It definitely competes with the SL as far as I am concerned. I considered the SL as a complement the M40, but the X1D makes more sense to me, unless I decide to experiment with wildlife photography.

 

The X1D makes sense as a companion to the M since both express the same philosophy, great images in a compact body (assuming the X1D lives up to its hype). It does not replace the M because of the EVF. But if future M cameras abandon the OVF, I will hold on to M240 for as long as possible, and complement them with the X1D.

 

Does it matter what it competes with?

 

For practical photography, I will use an M camera for walk about and anything else as a first choice.  For more specific uses (birds, landscape, sport or anything where I need weather sealing, AF or longer reach), I'll take the SL and zooms.  The SL is a great camera, but the zooms are, for all practical purposes, bulky (to say the least).  They make the Noctilux, 21 Summilux and AA 90 Summicron look and feel petite.

 

So, how does that translate into use - well, I'm off to Melbourne next week, and will take an M and a 50 & 28.  I'm then in NY and Washington DC in September, and I won't want to lug the SL and two zooms (I don't think), so I might take the SL and the mid zoom, or a couple of M lenses.  But, I'm off tramping (think beautiful landscape, rain and birds), and I will definitely take the SL and both zooms (it's a luxury tramp - carrying nothing more than that, water bottle and a change of clothes - clean sheets each night).

 

The X1D doesn't compete with the SL in that line up, but it does (potentially) the M.  As a travel camera, it looks like the business.  It will never be as fast or useful as the SL (better EVF, 1/16,000 electronic shutter huge zoom range 24-280) for anything other than slower, considered photography which is really the place of the M (for me anyway) - but it has that fabulous sensor, AF and weather sealing in both camera and lenses ...

 

Sounds like I'm talking myself into it - bad idea for me, as I have some fantastic cameras and fabulous lenses.  My constraint is time, rather than equipment - it is interesting though.

Edited June 27, 2016 by IkarusJohn

[steppenw0lf]

The general trend is towards more and more miniaturisation.

Trying to look into the future I will probably rather head towards "cropped" cameras (four-thirds or APS-C) than towards midrange format.

Users of these cameras think already today that 35mm camera systems are too big and bulky. Be careful NOT the cameras, but the system, speak the lenses, bellows and other equipment you might need. Therefore comments about big or small cameras are more or less off the track.

 

The 50 MP will be "cold coffee" in the near future (2-3 years). So is it really wise to change a system just because of that ? I heard of photogs considering switching their M for a X1D, I find this quite ridiculous (no offence).

At the same time I am really eager to see the result of this: Will there be many more artist photographers ? Or will photographic life be the spiritual center of a more mindful future ? (More slowness, more love to detail, more unity of body and mind)

 

Unfortunately in many lives the trend is towards more speed, even more acceleration. No time for composition or other fine details.

I wish the best for the switchers to midrange format, but I would never assume such an ambitious task. (Had Rollei 6x6 once and still have some lenses in mint condition).

Edited June 27, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[AlanJW]

Does it matter what it competes with?

 

For practical photography, I will use an M camera for walk about and anything else as a first choice.  For more specific uses (birds, landscape, sport or anything where I need weather sealing, AF or longer reach), I'll take the SL and zooms.  The SL is a great camera, but the zooms are, for all practical purposes, bulky (to say the least).  They make the Noctilux, 21 Summilux and AA 90 Summicron look and feel petite.

 

So, how does that translate into use - well, I'm off to Melbourne next week, and will take an M and a 50 & 28.  I'm then in NY and Washington DC in September, and I won't want to lug the SL and two zooms (I don't think), so I might take the SL and the mid zoom, or a couple of M lenses.  But, I'm off tramping (think beautiful landscape, rain and birds), and I will definitely take the SL and both zooms (it's a luxury tramp - carrying nothing more than that, water bottle and a change of clothes - clean sheets each night).

 

The X1D doesn't compete with the SL in that line up, but it does (potentially) the M.  As a travel camera, it looks like the business.  It will never be as fast or useful as the SL (better EVF, 1/16,000 electronic shutter huge zoom range 24-280) for anything other than slower, considered photography which is really the place of the M (for me anyway) - but it has that fabulous sensor, AF and weather sealing in both camera and lenses ...

 

Sounds like I'm talking myself into it - bad idea for me, as I have some fantastic cameras and fabulous lenses.  My constraint is time, rather than equipment - it is interesting though.

Bring your X1D to New York in September.   I'd like to see it.  GAS is a very serious condition.  I know from experience.

[ramarren]

The X1D is very appealing to me. I like the concept a lot and believe that Hasselblad has the right notions in mind for its design and development. But it doesn't solve any problem that I'm having with my equipment. 

 

The Leica SL is working perfectly for my present needs, and for any need that I can foresee having in the near-term future. What will improve my photography the most is simply more time to do photography, using the equipment I already have. Because when I have the time to focus more on my photography, money will become a more sensitive factor.

 

 

I'll be keeping my eye on the X1D and its development. An ultra-wide lens in the 22mm range, the way I've suggested here and elsewhere, will put it into the same space as the SWC: that would be useful to me if it happens. Whether I can afford it if it happens ... that's a matter of priorities and luck. 

[IkarusJohn]

Bring your X1D to New York in September.   I'd like to see it.  GAS is a very serious condition.  I know from experience.

 

You can play with my version 1 Monochrom - that is all I will have 

[steppenw0lf]

I'll be keeping my eye on the X1D and its development. An ultra-wide lens in the 22mm range, the way I've suggested here and elsewhere, will put it into the same space as the SWC: that would be useful to me if it happens. Whether I can afford it if it happens ... that's a matter of priorities and luck. 

 

The widest lens in the H line is a 4.8/24mm. So I'm not sure how likely it is that there will be a 22mm or shorter.

Edited June 28, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[IkarusJohn]

... I'll be keeping my eye on the X1D and its development. An ultra-wide lens in the 22mm range, the way I've suggested here and elsewhere, will put it into the same space as the SWC: that would be useful to me if it happens. Whether I can afford it if it happens ... that's a matter of priorities and luck. 

 

The SWC equivalent is 21mm in 35mm terms; the HCD 4.8/24 35mm equivalent is 18mm (by my calculations).  I would be very interested in this lens ...

[FlashGordonPhotography]

What the 'blad will compete with depends on how you shoot and what you're comparing it to, personally. For some it'll be the price point. Others the sensor size. Others different stuff again.

 

For me it doesn't compete with anything I own. SL has system flexibility, lens adaptability, tilt shift lenses (Canon) and speed. Pentax has lens availability, zooms, long and macro. S shares a flash and lenses with the SL and has a 3:2 ratio I can mix with 35mm and mine is a CCD.

 

Maybe a large AF M. But I'd prefer a 28, 50 and 90mm. Or the Sony A7R2 but that's a body that takes nearly any lens I own.

 

I'd just prefer to think of it as interesting in its own right.

 

Gordon

[Adam]

Does it matter what it competes with?

 

For practical photography, I will use an M camera for walk about and anything else as a first choice.  For more specific uses (birds, landscape, sport or anything where I need weather sealing, AF or longer reach), I'll take the SL and zooms.  The SL is a great camera, but the zooms are, for all practical purposes, bulky (to say the least).  They make the Noctilux, 21 Summilux and AA 90 Summicron look and feel petite.

 

So, how does that translate into use - well, I'm off to Melbourne next week, and will take an M and a 50 & 28.  I'm then in NY and Washington DC in September, and I won't want to lug the SL and two zooms (I don't think), so I might take the SL and the mid zoom, or a couple of M lenses.  But, I'm off tramping (think beautiful landscape, rain and birds), and I will definitely take the SL and both zooms (it's a luxury tramp - carrying nothing more than that, water bottle and a change of clothes - clean sheets each night).

 

The X1D doesn't compete with the SL in that line up, but it does (potentially) the M.  As a travel camera, it looks like the business.  It will never be as fast or useful as the SL (better EVF, 1/16,000 electronic shutter huge zoom range 24-280) for anything other than slower, considered photography which is really the place of the M (for me anyway) - but it has that fabulous sensor, AF and weather sealing in both camera and lenses ...

 

Sounds like I'm talking myself into it - bad idea for me, as I have some fantastic cameras and fabulous lenses.  My constraint is time, rather than equipment - it is interesting though.

 

It does matter, but maybe only to me since I cannot buy both the SL and X1D as a second body

 

But I agree, X1D is more M-like in philosophy, than SL-like. I should have made it clear, when I meant compete, I meant my choices which are constrained by time. I agree the SL has different strengths, and if I had more opportunities and time to hike, SL is the camera I would take. I wish I did. 

 

I am very curious to see the reviews and more images to see if X1D and the lens will stand up to M and SL. It is an extremely high bar for X1D to cross.

 

Talking to yourself is dangerous, before you know it, you are convinced you need to buy one. Yes, and only if one could also purchase additional time...

 

Happy 'tramping' and travels!

[ramarren]

...I'll be keeping my eye on the X1D and its development. An ultra-wide lens in the 22mm range, the way I've suggested here and elsewhere, will put it into the same space as the SWC: that would be useful to me if it happens. ...

 

The widest lens in the H line is a 4.8/24mm. So I'm not sure how likely it is that there will be a 22mm or shorter.

 

The SWC equivalent is 21mm in 35mm terms; the HCD 4.8/24 35mm equivalent is 18mm (by my calculations).  I would be very interested in this lens ...

 

 

Designing a sub-24mm lens for an SLR of this format is very challenging due to the mount register and swinging mirror. Building a 20 to 24mm lens for a mirrorless camera with a far shorter mount register and no moving mirror would be quite a bit easier. The same is true of the Hasselblad 500C system ... the shortest lens they made for it was a Distagon 40mm and the Biogon 38mm could not be made compatible with the swinging mirror. So they built the SWC. 

 

I am interested in the square FoV of the Hasselblad SWC in a digital camera. Given its 6x6 film basis and the 38mm lens, this is what "Rui Salgueiro's field-of-view calculator" reports:

 

Query Results for SWC, (56x56 mm real) 6x6 format

 

focal = 38

format = 56 56

width = 24

length = 36

Width = 56 mm, Length = 56 mm, Diagonal = 79.196 mm

  f    Hor       Vert      Diag       H/V  

 38.0   72.7687   72.7687   92.3595    1.0000

 

I input a variety of focal lengths for a theoretical 33x33 sensor. The two closest in whole number bracket the SWC FoV values. 

 

Query Results for X1D with 33x44 format sensor

 

focal =  22 23

format = other

width = 33

length = 33

Width = 33 mm, Length = 33 mm, Diagonal = 46.669 mm

  f    Hor       Vert      Diag       H/V  

 22.0   73.7398   73.7398   93.3723    1.0000

 23.0   71.3107   71.3107   90.8273    1.0000

 

That's why I'm looking for a 22mm-ish lens for this camera. A little wider or a little longer wouldn't make too much difference. 

 

BTW, my current solution to this desire is the SL fitted with 15 or 16mm lenses. Here is the calculation, with a theoretical square 24x24mm sensor: 

 

Query Results for Leica SL - square format: 

 

You submitted the following name/value pairs:

focal = 15 16 17 18

format = other

width = 24

length = 24

Width = 24 mm, Length = 24 mm, Diagonal = 33.9411 mm

  f    Hor       Vert      Diag       H/V  

 15.0   77.3196   77.3196   97.0541    1.0000

 16.0   73.7398   73.7398   93.3723    1.0000

 17.0   70.4352   70.4352   89.9007    1.0000

 18.0   67.3801   67.3801   86.6277    1.0000

 

Calculations compared against test images show these FoV values to be very accurate. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by ramarren

[IkarusJohn]

Thanks Adam!

 

The conundrum is a tricky one, as frequently you're (I'm, or one is) so excited with the new toy you head out the door with the wrong thing for the wrong occasion.  Often, what you have is the best choice.  But, having turned up with a dSLR and huge lens and felt massively self-conscious at my hopeless selection of over the top equipment for the occasion, and conversely having turned up to a bird shooting outing with my M9 (it was all I had), I can say from experience that there is equipment for the occasion, for me.

 

The difficulty is looking beyond the intriguing possibilities of shiny new gear (and imagining how you might use it) to the reality!

 

I can say that the M is unsurpassed for me as a walk about camera I can have in the car, a camera bag (but not my pocket) or slung over the should for situational pictures - whatever turns up.  The choice then is film, digital, colour or black & white, and which lens (one in the pocket?).

 

Heading out to take pictures of kitesurfing, paragliding or anything requiring long reach, a zoom or AF, then the SL is the obvious/only choice.  The zoom is fantastic, but the system is bigger than an M (less so than many SLRs, but it's hardly a "mine is bigger than yours" competition).

 

Both systems cover focal lengths from 15 to 380.  So, the case for the X1D is pretty thin, if you already have an M system and/or an SL system. But if you have a background in Hasselblads, and a hankering for a medium format camera, this is a very tempting proposition (read, trap for ending up with another paperweight you don't need).  The camera is compact (SL dimensions), medium format (appealing, with the state of the art sensor from the H6D-50c), 35mm equivalent 38mm & 70mm lenses (useful combination) and weather sealed.  That may be useful for some, for others it may not add enough to bother with another system (another set of filters, battery chargers etc etc).

 

For me, it wouldn't displace the SL (I don't think); but then, if I had one, I would take it to NY with the 45mm lens (to show to Alan) and I might take it tramping with the 45 & 90 to save the weight and bulk of the SL (no bird pictures then and some restriction on landscape).  Having a nice compact camera like this is attractive, it has to be said.

 

Your mileage will definitely vary!

 

Cheers

John

Edited June 28, 2016 by IkarusJohn

[Jeff S]

An issue for me will be determining a good dealer to line up a demo/rental, as it's been ages since I owned a Hasselblad film camera and I have no recent familiarity with the dealer network in the US.  Lensrentals doesn't appear to deal with Hasselblad for rental.  Any experience here with digital Blads.....sales and service.....is appreciated.

 

I'm also not keen on introducing new software (Phocus), so any comments regarding use of LR with digital Blads is also appreciated.

 

For me, actual handling, taking pics and making prints cuts through a lot of discussion and theory.  It did recently when I demo-ed an S006 and zoom (not for me), while the SL is still in consideration.  Since I'm looking for a complement to my M, it will take more X1D lenses (beyond the announced 35/70 equivalent) to potentially fit the bill.  Apparently a 30mm (23/24 equivalent) is on the way by Photokina.  Reports suggest that the company has a lens road map, but is not making this public for now.....would be very good to know.

 

Jeff

[Ecaton]

Why is the new `blad so fantastic? Because it puts pressure on Leica and others (Fuji, Pentax) to develop relatively portable systems with larger than FF sensors. Maybe the not so distant future holds a combo of an aps-c system for speed, reach and versatility and a portable MF system for landscape, stills, artistic stuff with ultimate IQ for my bag. 

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

An issue for me will be determining a good dealer to line up a demo/rental, as it's been ages since I owned a Hasselblad film camera and I have no recent familiarity with the dealer network in the US.  Lensrentals doesn't appear to deal with Hasselblad for rental.  Any experience here with digital Blads.....sales and service.....is appreciated.

 

I'm also not keen on introducing new software (Phocus), so any comments regarding use of LR with digital Blads is also appreciated.

 

For me, actual handling, taking pics and making prints cuts through a lot of discussion and theory.  It did recently when I demo-ed an S006 and zoom (not for me), while the SL is still in consideration.  Since I'm looking for a complement to my M, it will take more X1D lenses (beyond the announced 35/70 equivalent) to potentially fit the bill.  Apparently a 30mm (23/24 equivalent) is on the way by Photokina.  Reports suggest that the company has a lens road map, but is not making this public for now.....would be very good to know.

 

Jeff

 

 

 

i read on another forum that lens rentals did intend to offer the new 'bad for rental, but may not have them for several months. Take that for what it's worth (unconfirmed third party internet here-say....).

 

Gordon