Rare Leica in unopened bag, with X-ray to prove contents

[wlaidlaw]

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Marco Schouten in the Netherlands is offering an unopened bag with an x-ray showing its contents as a rare military Leica KE-7 with an f2 Elcan Leica lens. I believe this was a black finish Leica Canada made version of the M4. The Elcan lens was quite special being all non-cemented to withstand use in very damp climates (e.g. Vietnam). In view of the rarity, I don't think its price of €29,750 is unreasonable. 

 

However, would any of us be able to resist opening the bag. I know for certain I wouldn't. This of course, would reduce the value somewhat but I would just want to be 100% certain, that X-Ray not withstanding, there was not simply a nicely wrapped and boxed brick inside 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-Leitz-KE-7A-Set-Sealed-Unopened-Extremely-Rare/152122440807?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36860%26meid%3D484929b2ccdb4166ba920d5e8d7c97a5%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D131687543047 

 

Wilson

[luigi bertolotti]

Well... Schouten is a well known dealer... but all this offer looks a bit borderline... have you read the details about the 5KEuro NO REFUND deposit for the "right to open" ?   I SUPPOSE that if you pay the deposit, open the bag, and the items are NOT EXACTLY what they say (i.e. KE7A 1.294.805, ELCAN 50mm 276-0136...) you ought to be refunded... but this is not clearly stated... they just write that no warranty is offered....

Anyway, apart this, is undoubtly an oddity to state that a certain collectible as an ADDITIONAL value for the fact that it is kept into a conditions which does NOT allow to see it...  ... it's a funny situation for logicians  ("my value is high beacause you cannot verify my value").

Edited June 16, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

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[Hayek]

Well... Schouten is a well known dealer... but all this offer looks a bit borderline... have you read the details about the 5KEuro NO REFUND deposit for the "right to open" ?   I SUPPOSE that if you pay the deposit, open the bag, and the items are NOT EXACTLY what they say (i.e. KE7A 1.294.805, ELCAN 50mm 276-0136...) you ought to be refunded... but this is not clearly stated... they just write that no warranty is offered....

Anyway, apart this, is undoubtly an oddity to state that a certain collectible as an ADDITIONAL value for the fact that it is kept into a conditions which does NOT allow to see it...  ... it's a funny situation for logicians  ("my value is high beacause you cannot verify my value").

 

It isn't unreasonable at all. There's an apparent collector's premium for a sealed package (Lord knows why; maybe a requisite from the same sociopaths who commission art museum thefts so they can admire a stolen Vermeer in their vault, alone). Very reasonable for the suspicious to front the diminished value if confirmation is demanded.

[wlaidlaw]

Looking at KE-7 prices, there seems to be an even wider variation than usual. However I certainly would not purchase it even if I was a collector with a "no refunds" condition. I am not sure this is legal even in the EU. This is of course, a new item, otherwise the whole premise of the sale is rubbish.

 

It would be an easy item to fake, buy any old M4, stick it in a box and stick a Summicron C 40mm on it, whose profile is very similar to the Elcan 50, seal it all up in a bag on which you have printed all sorts of US Army rubbish and numbers on it. "Ooh - look what I have found, but you can't open it to check or it will lose all its value and BTW I want to be paid by Western Union Money Transfer, with no refunds."

 

Wilson 

[luigi bertolotti]

Well.... I tend to be a man with confidence...  my idea is that Schouten wouldn't arrange a rough forgery... they are simply trying to make a good deal (for them... ) on an interesting original collectible ; btw, I seem to remember to have read in some book (Van Hasbroek ? Lager ?) that when US Army discarded the KE7A, a certain number of items, still sealed in the original packaging (I am almost sure that the phrase was exactly like this) were sold to "dealers".... (don't remember the rest of the phrase... I have to check which book was it...)

Edited June 16, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

[Denys]

My two-pennies..    ..I understand the view "these cameras were made to be used: use them"..   I understand the view "if I don't use it and keep it in mint condition instead, it will be there for future generations to enjoy"..   ..but I cannot understand buying something but deliberately not being able to look at it..    ..whoever buys this is buying a very expensive paper bag and relying on their imagination for enjoyment..   ..or assuming there are other collectors out there willing to put a premium on that unopened bag - so it's a brilliant investment..    ..Emporer's new clothes?..   ..each to their own, I suppose..

[wlaidlaw]

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Well.... I tend to be a man with confidence...  my idea is that Schouten wouldn't arrange a rough forgery... they are simply trying to make a good deal (for them... ) on an interesting original collectible ; btw, I seem to remember to have read in some book (Van Hasbroek ? Lager ?) that when US Army discarded the KE7A, a certain number of items, still sealed in the original packaging (I am almost sure that the phrase was exactly like this) were sold to "dealers".... (don't remember the rest of the phrase... I have to check which book was it...)

 

Luigi, 

 

I am sure you are correct. Schouten would not dare risk his reputation on a fake - but why the no refunds statement? I will look in my Van Hasbroek book tomorrow to see what he says about it. Still for me there is a tiny smell of the emperor's new clothes about the whole thing, as Denys says above. 

 

I have told the story before about buying a new sealed box 135/4 Tele-Elmarit, which would have been about 20 years old but never opened, from a big Cologne dealer. It was not a huge amount of money but the look of horror on his face when I opened the box, took it out of its bag and stuck it on my M8 was priceless 

 

Wilson

Edited June 16, 2016 by wlaidlaw

[luigi bertolotti]

....btw, I seem to remember to have read in some book (Van Hasbroek ? Lager ?) that when US Army discarded the KE7A, a certain number of items, still sealed in the original packaging (I am almost sure that the phrase was exactly like this) were sold to "dealers".... (don't remember the rest of the phrase... I have to check which book was it...)...

Just checked... neither Van Hasbroeck nor Lager... it's in McKeown : (about KE7A) :  "in 1990 about 55 examples were sold at auction, all new and still hermetically sealed in brown Kraft bags with military stock numbers and serial numbers recorded on the outside of each bag. Most of these were bougth by dealers in an attempt to corner the market. The asking price of the largest buyer was $7000 each.   A smaller quantity reportedly sold at about $5000 each by other dealers."

[sandro]

Is the price gone up? I just checked the ad and it says € 40.320,-. The Elcan lens would be special, as is the KE-7A, but I only collect Leica M bodies to use them, that's the fun of it. So I doubt if in actual use for me there would be much difference between a beautiful black M4 and a KE-7. What would be the fun to have a special set and leave it unopened is beyond me, so I love your story about the Cologne dealer, Wilson.

Lex

[earleygallery]

That's a VERY expensive jiffy bag. 

[MarkP]

I seem to recall the same, or similar unopened, KE-7A for sale through them some 5 years ago for a similar price.

But I could be wrong about the price.

[lct]

The hood looks genuine at least.

 

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[wattsy]

Is the Elcan 50mm any good? To use, that is (as opposed to keep in a paper bag).

[wlaidlaw]

Ian, 

 

I would guess not quite as good as the contemporary Summicron, due to the compromises imposed by not using cemented elements. I thought by this time (the early 1970's), Leica was switching over to UV activated Norland synthetic balsam, which was far more damp and fungus proof rather than the natural Canada Balsam, so was the air spaced lens necessary? The downside of the synthetic balsam as Malcolm Taylor explained to me, is if you get a lens where the balsam has deteriorated, it is close to impossible to get the elements apart without damage, whereas the older natural balsam is easy. You just put the group in a pan of warm distilled water and bring up nearly to the boil slowly. After a few minutes, the elements will fall apart. To get the synthetic ones apart, you have to cook them in a pressure cooker filled with methylene choride (it boils at around 40ºC), a process best left to the experts, as methylene chloride is nasty stuff, if you breathe it in. 

 

Wilson

[luigi bertolotti]

Is the Elcan 50mm any good? To use, that is (as opposed to keep in a paper bag).

There is a sort of (widely reported) legend that Leitz Canada designed the 4 elements Elcan 50 f2 because the Summicron "exceeded the specifications of US Army" ... but I think that Wilson's explanation is much more reasonable.... even if, of course, Leitz passionates are proud to think that their beloved Summicrons were "too good for Uncle Sam"

I think that somewhere one can find the MTF graphs of the Elcan (it is not such a rare item, in itself, differently from other Elcan lenses like the 66mm), and probably some pictures taken with it have even been published in the Forum... it is anyway a "good 50" iirc...

Edited June 17, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

[wlaidlaw]

Does Leica still use the Norland adhesive UV activated synthetic balsam for cementing elements. I know they were the first to develop it but that was in the 1960's and must be out of patent by now? I would have thought Leica would have wanted to use good German adhesive made perhaps by someone like UHU Gmbh. 

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

Does Leica still use the Norland adhesive UV activated synthetic balsam for cementing elements. I know they were the first to develop it but that was in the 1960's and must be out of patent by now? I would have thought Leica would have wanted to use good German adhesive made perhaps by someone like UHU Gmbh. 

 

Wilson

 

PS. I believe Norland developed it for using in the lenses of spy satellites, as conventional natural Canada balsam was found to deteriorate quickly in the rigours of outer space. 

 

Sorry double post - finger trouble!

Edited June 17, 2016 by wlaidlaw

[jpattison]

Its good to see you get a free cable release with it, and what looks like a leather half case?

 

John

[michaelwj]

 

 

I have told the story before about buying a new sealed box 135/4 Tele-Elmarit, which would have been about 20 years old but never opened, from a big Cologne dealer. It was not a huge amount of money but the look of horror on his face when I opened the box, took it out of its bag and stuck it on my M8 was priceless 

 

Wilson

 

 

I assume the look was just him wondering how you were going to focus such a long lens on an M8 

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[lct]

The aperture ring was stuck at f/5.6