Leica M Vs R Lenses

[BillBillson]

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Does anyone have any examples they can send of Leica M vs R image quality?

I want to buy some Leicas (50 and 75mm) to begin with but not sure if should get old Rs or new Ms

these are for cinematography use - on cameras like Red / Sony 55 / FS7 / A7s II ect

 

i understand the old Rs have a longer focal rotation and are larger - which is good / fine

but what about actual image quality? look / sharpness 

 

buy an old R lens (made in 1980 ect) when i was basically born - worried about buying a lens so old

should i buy a used old R lens for $1,200 USD? or make the leap and buy a new M series $3,000 USD each +

 

i saw a video example of the new M 50mm F1.4 vs new M F2 - and i prefer the look of the 50mm F1.4

so maybe sharpness isn't so important as a softer image also looks more filmic - but don't want it also looking soft

i like the look of Leica as it seems to feel more dreamy / more filmic - like look of cooke compared to Zeiss 

 

sorry if this thread has been covered before

but curious to get some help / input 

thanks for ur time

 

Bill

[earleygallery]

For the most part I suspect that you won't see any difference between the two if comparing the same lens. However some R lenses were made by Sigma, Minolta and Kyocera and so there aren't any directly comparable M lenses. Also given the R line was discontinued some years ago, many M lenses benefit from newer designs which can mean better performance in some areas.

 

I don't think you'd be disappointed with the quality of any R lens, and s/h prices are stable or increasing so there's really no 'risk' in buying them to try for yourself.

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[ramarren]

My experience from when I owned the Sony A7 and used Leica R and Leica M lenses on it was that for lenses shorter than 50mm focal length, the R lenses generally performed better at corners and edges than the M lenses and had less of a propensity to color shifting across the frame. 

 

That said, I still saw problems when using shorter focal lengths on the A7 that don't appear on the Leica M-P or SL. 

[james.liam]

Does anyone have any examples they can send of Leica M vs R image quality?

I want to buy some Leicas (50 and 75mm) to begin with but not sure if should get old Rs or new Ms

these are for cinematography use - on cameras like Red / Sony 55 / FS7 / A7s II ect

 

i understand the old Rs have a longer focal rotation and are larger - which is good / fine

but what about actual image quality? look / sharpness 

 

buy an old R lens (made in 1980 ect) when i was basically born - worried about buying a lens so old

should i buy a used old R lens for $1,200 USD? or make the leap and buy a new M series $3,000 USD each +

 

i saw a video example of the new M 50mm F1.4 vs new M F2 - and i prefer the look of the 50mm F1.4

so maybe sharpness isn't so important as a softer image also looks more filmic - but don't want it also looking soft

i like the look of Leica as it seems to feel more dreamy / more filmic - like look of cooke compared to Zeiss 

 

sorry if this thread has been covered before

but curious to get some help / input 

thanks for ur time

 

Bill

 

Don't know about the Red but the a7S versions play better with M glass than their sisters. However, 50s still have demonstrable issues with the ray angle too. The age of the lens ought not bother you a bit--today, I shot a 50 Summicron Rigid, circa-1960; spectacular tonality on my Monochrom. The best of the fast R's (35 & 50 Summilux, 80 Summilux, 90 AA Summicron) are better suited for your work than the M, methinks. And because they're larger with longer focus throw, probably easier to pull focus as well. 

 

Ramarren is on the mark about the WA lenses; the M's offered a design challenge to Leica because of the compact size and the R wides often had no M equivalent at that FL (like the 15 Super Elmar) or out-performed their contemporary M wides (19 Elmarit v.2 [vs 21 M] and 28 Elmarit v.2). 

[BillBillson]

Is there not somewhere on the net where someone has done a full comprehensive image test of both M vs R lens? i.e. 50mm M vs 50mm R (at F1.4, F2, F4, F8) 

so that people can see some examples as to the diff between the image quality

then i could see if its worth spending 3-4 times the amount and going with the M or should buy second hand old R lenses 

Bill

[james.liam]

I don't know but specific R's were and remain stellar optics favored by videographers. That's why they are harder to find, as many have already been bought up and altered for that purpose.

[mbphotox]

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Do you want absolute "quality" as in sharpness, lack of CA, no flaring, or do you want "quality" as in smooth rendering, tonality, subject isolation, etc.?

 

If it's the former you're after, I would get Samyang XEEN lenses. They aren't cheap (2 grand per focal length) but they were built to compete with the Zeiss "compact prime" cine lenses (4-5 grand each) at 6 and even 8k resolution video.

 

Leica does build impressive lenses, but I haven't seen a single test where they could outperform their Zeiss counterpart (summilux 50mm vs Planar 50/1.4, let alone the new Milvus line..), they are more focused on delivering a great image, full of character and not perfect in measurable ways.

 

Just my 2 cents

[steppenw0lf]

I do like both Leica R and Zeiss Contax, and also Leica M.

The Ms are new, so they are available, but costly. (Of course there are also secondhand lenses). The others can only be had secondhand (R and Contax).

Or if you prefer Otus Zeiss, they are also new but very costly.

 

Generally you cannot say too much, there are great lenses in all the ranges mentioned. You need to look at the detail - a specific lens. And for second-hand you have to look what is available.

 

I use lenses from all ranges on the Leica SL for photos. And I find all of them excellent.

Film is probably less demanding, so I guess they all are fine for film regarding the optical quality.

But for film other things could be more important (e.g. the way the lens turns for focusing or zooming, if zooms are of constant aperture or "hold focus", etc. etc.) Do you need high aperture lenses ? ("Summiluxes")      Or rather zooms (only R or Contax)

 

Regarding price there is more or less this order:

Used Contax is cheapest, then used Leica R, then used Leica M, finally new Leica M and Otus Zeiss (both very expensive), and at the end dedicated film/video lenses. Video lenses are not necessarily better optically, but they have ways of control adapted to filming and are sometimes even calibrated (a whole collection with similar size and weight and aperture etc.)

[thebarnman]

For Cinema use?  Of course there are the Leica Cine lenses http://cw-sonderoptic.com/summilux-c/

 

You can even rent them. 

[Steve McGarrett]

R-lenses generally perform similar to M-lenses of the same era and type, with some exception (in better and in worse).

Some lenses are nearly identical between the two systems, ie. Summilux 75/80, Elmarit 90 (v2 R vs #11807 M), Apo-Summicron 90 etc.

 

However, if you're planning about using Leica lenses on a non-Leica digital FF camera (Ramarren talked about Sony MLs), then for shorter focal lenght R lenses are way better, like he said (no colour shifts, no corner blur etc.).

[mbphotox]

Should make a great walkaround lens:

http://hotrodcameras.com/cameras/lenses-optics/cine-lenses/prime-lenses-cine/leica/leica-50mm-t1-4-summilux-c.html

 

and the 35mm for Street

http://hotrodcameras.com/cameras/lenses-optics/cine-lenses/prime-lenses-cine/leica/leica-35mm-t1-4-summilux-c.html?___SID=U

 

I bet you can get both for as little as 60'000 USD if you ask for a discount.

Too bad they won't even cover the SL's sensor.

[Tony Mac]

I imagine it would be hard to modify M lenses to be used with a follow focus system, which is why the R series is so much more popular. I have a three lens set I've modified with gears and an 80mm front ring for matte boxes. Works great. 

 

Here's a video I did with the 28mm VII, 50mm 1.4 V1 and 80mm 1.4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74-4JOXYOyE