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No serial number on lens...


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Hello

Was it common for Leica to not stamp a serial number on their lenses? Why would this lack of procedure have been performed?

I have a chrome 5cm f/2.5 Hektor with 7 o'clock domed release but no serial number. It came with a black export model Leica II from 1932 (marked Germany on the accessory shoe and open/close on the bottom panel); however the lens is marked mtr so I don't think they started life together. Anyone have any thoughts on the lack of serial number practice?

 

Dave   

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I think yours is similar to this one:

5hektor25c.jpg

 

(The picture is taken from this forum's Wiki).

 

That lens has a serial number. You can see it but faintly on the bronze ring next to the front lens, in the ten o'clock position. The light needs to come from the side.

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lenses on Leica I model A were fix mounted, there was no need to assign separate lens serial number.

With introduction of interchageable, non-standartized lenses mid 1930 lenses received either 5 digit camera SN, later last 3 digit of camera SN engraved on DOF (or lens flange). This is however not a regular lens serial number. Stamping regular SN on lens barrel started mid/end of 1931. The lowest SN recorded for Elmar 50mm is 73171, for Hektor 50mm is 92624.

Around 1932, with introduction of Leica II lens mount has been changed from 11 oclock to 7 oclock. 

Lenses with chrom plating were offered from approx 1936 and all lenses produced in chrom plating had SN stamped.

Fetaures of your lens indicate that it was upgraded/converted after 1936. Until late fifties it was possible to convert older cameras and lenses at Leitz and the rule was that upgraded cameras and lenses kept their original SN (or were left without SN if original lens had none). 

I believe that you lens originates from Leica I, was 11 oclock nickel plated and was converted to chrom plated 7 oclock after 1936.

Is your Leica II an upgraded model? Does it have nickeled or chromed knobs? Leicas were exported to the countries with metric system too, so there is a chance that the lens originates from the camera. posting SN or photos of your equipment could help to determine it.

Edited by jerzy
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...and here is example of an upgraded Hektor. It orginates from Leica IA SN 8699, is 11 oclock, intechangeable mount, nickel plated. Both camera and lens have a very interesting history, full story will be published in Viewfinder in the 2nd half of 2016.

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Jerzy is absolutely correct about the sequence from no serial number to partial numbers from the camera to full serial numbers for the lens alone. He is also correct about what happened with converted cameras. Here is an example from my collection. The camera pictured below, serial number 23862, started out in life as a I Model A in 1930. Subsequently, at some time during the 1930s, it was converted to a Standard. The original lens, with no serial number on the lens head, was converted at the same time from 11 O'Clock to 7O'Clock. Even though the nickel was well worn it was not chromed at the time of the conversion as the camera itself remained black with nickel 'furniture'.

 

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It would help if Dave could check or share the SN of the II Model D from 1932 to see whether it it might be from an upgraded I model, as upgraded cameras usually kept their original SNs. I have a 1932 II Model D with a regular series SN which came with a 7O'Clock Hektor with full SN on the lens. The 7O'clock lenses were introduced in late 1932/early 1933 in anticipation of the Model III which appeared in 1933.

 

William

 

 

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Thanks guys for the information. I made some quick images of the Hektor lens with my cellphone. Sorry for the poor quality.
The first shows the chrome non-serial numbered Hektor next to an early nickel Elmar (SN: 137097).

 

lenses_s.jpg

 

The next image shows the Hektor lens on the camera it came with - a Leica II (SN: 83126)

 

leica2-hektor_s.jpg

 

Any further insights or opinions? I suppose the most plausible explanation for the lack of serial number is that the lens was upgraded/converted from an earlier Hektor as Jerzy suggested.

 

Dave

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Yes, me too think that Jerzy' suggestion is probably right : an upgrade made around mid '30s : an Hektor 5cm, chrome and 7 o'clock ought to bear a s/n, in theory (and... probably even a 6 digits one... Lager displays a 94.xxx which is still a 11 o'clock).

A small detail... has your lens the IR mark on DOF scale ?

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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Yes, me too think that Jerzy' suggestion is probably right : an upgrade made around mid '30s : an Hektor 5cm, chrome and 7 o'clock ought to bear a s/n, in theory (and... probably even a 6 digits one... Lager displays a 94.xxx which is still a 11 o'clock).

A small detail... has your lens the IR mark on DOF scale ?

Thanks Luigi...

In answer to your question - yes, there is an IR mark on the DOF scale (between both 2,5 indicators while the nickel Elmar has it between the 3,5 indicators)

 

Dave

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Your camera as produced as II and does not show any visible signs of an upgrade. Just the speed dial, although correct for Leica II must have been replaced some time, the original one should have been larger, 15,4mm in diameter if I remember correctly. Isn't it chrome? Looks shiner On your photo compared to other nickeled elements. In any case, the lens seem to be earlier than the camera and converted after 1936, more precise dating is not possible.

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Jerzy is correct. This is a regular series camera with just a replacement for the shutter speed dial. There is nothing to associate the Hektor with the camera and they were probably put together later. van Hasbroeck states that many chrome Hektors were produced in wartime with poor quality chrome. Variant No 7 (the last one) on van Hasbroeck's list is the chrome one with IR mark. I suspect that an early Hektor lens head (possibly from an II O'Clock lens) was used with a later mount and was chromed, possibly during wartime. This re-matching of mount and head is similar to what was done with my Elmar shown above on a Standard. I also have a Summar where a lens head was mated with a mount from a different period. Upgrades and various other re-matches were quite common in the pre-war period.

 

William

Edited by willeica
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One I have is without s/n, chrome plated and is like new

found in plastic container

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