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Many thanks re my post .72 or .85 Viewfinder - Leica MP film


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Many thanks to all who gave advice on which viewfinder you thought would best suit my needs, noting that I do wear glasses. 

 

Your advice was varied between .58  .72  .85 . . . and to be honest I'm still confused as to which viewfinder would be best.

 

I did mention my lenses of interest were 28mm, 35mm, 50mm Noct. 1.0. As with all things in life, one must make compromises, so that being said, I have decided to concentrate on two lenses: 35mm and 50mm Noct. 1.0

 

Two people I spoke to, both wear glasses, both with Leice MPs, and both only shoot film for about six years. One said I wouldn't have any trouble focusing the 50 Noct with .58 - the other person laughed and said it would be extremely difficult to Focus the 50 Noct with .58 and recommended the .72 - Both highly experienced, both extremely sincere.

 

The fact that I have removed the 28mm from the equation? . . . Feel free to give further advice if you wish.

 

I'm still terribly confused!!!

 

Many thanks again.

 

ziggy

 

 

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It is so simple. Examine your photographic use. If your main interest is around 35-50-75 mm go for 0.72. If you have a bias for using longer or shorter lenses pick the corresponding viewfinder.

Reading your post I suspect you would be happiest with the 0.72.

 

Don't worry about focusing the Noctilux. It is perfectly doable with all three magnifications. It just takes training. (and possibly a magnifier) But don't try and build a system around what is -in the end- a specialist lens.

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For my film cameras I developed a preference for 0.85 because I like the extra magnification at 50mm. I shoot a lot at 35mm and here the frame lines are very 'tight' even without glasses, (with glasses I don't think I would be happy at 35mm and 0.85). Even without glasses I don't easily clearly see the whole 35mm frameline but I like that the extra magnification makes me feel more 'in the picture' and am not usually concerned with precise framing.

 

When I got a digital leica (0.68 magnification) I bought the 1.25 magnifier so that it would also be equivalent to 0.85 but I find it a bit intrusive (also you can poke yourself in the eye with it). Recently I have removed the magnifier and notice the difference less and less when switching between digital and film. I do still carry it though e.g. for shooting 90mm wide open at music events.

 

I think the advice to go for 0.72 is pretty sound, particularly for a glasses wearer. With time I think most people would quickly forget about the difference between 0.72/0.85 unless really shooting often at longer focal lengths.

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Each person sees in a different way. I used 0.72 for 13 years, then last year switched to 0.58.

 

No regrets at all. I thought it would be a problem focusing the 50mm Summilux-ASPH to 0.7meters, or the 90mm f4 Macro-Elmar at 0.8m, but I found it no more difficult than the 0.72. The fraction of photos I miss is the same.

 

I don't know what the depth of field of the noctilux at 1 meter is compared to the summilux at 0.7m (or the 90mm macro-elmer at 0.8m), so that is something to look at.

 

Anyway, bottom line is that I thought 0.58 would have been much more difficult compared to 0.72, but it is not (for me). And btw, the 0.58 shows 28mm and 35mm very nicely! 

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once getting the right magnification brings you to a point of real confusion, you shpuld think twice about getting a rangefinder at all.

 

because using a rangefinder -and especially Leica M- is all about composing the image in your mind. you do not really "need" the finder to find your picture or to compose it.. you already "know" where it is and how it will look. you just need the finder, to hold the camera in the right way to take the picture you desire.

 

for this needs, (in most cases)  any kind of viewfindermagnification will do with any lens. because you already have the picture in your mind. and therefor you know exactly where the center of your image will be. and as any finder has a center you will be able to post your camera in the right direction with any finder. of course it will be easier with a more acurate finder to align your composition vertically or horizontally. but in the end with a viewfinder-type pf camera you will always end up with some kind of parallax-error in your framing and some inpercision in your framing as even with a new Leica M-P the framing will always only correct for one special setting of distance and only to some defined percentage. as a user of a rangefinder, you get used to this and arrange your way of composing to this fact.

 

for me, this is, what rangefinders ara all about.

 

of course this will work a little better with a .85 mag when you use a 50mm lens or longer. of course this will be better with a 35 lens on a .72 mag and a .58 mag will be satisfying your framing needs better for a 24 lens. but then again you have to focus through the same magnification and you loose precision with every downgrade of magnification. this is nothing to worry about with shorter lenses but with longer lenses ore wide open this can become an issue.

 

to get around these Problems you have to make some kind of compromise. Withihn 60 years of Leica M existence, Leica users seem to have come to the conclusion, that .72 will be the best compromise on these thpughts and therefore they bought the most cameras with this magnification. As long as you dont find why you would be so much diferent to the most of the leica users, i think you shpuld start of with a .72 mag. if you dont like it after a time, you can still get another one. but i am sure, you will be fine with that.

 

but first think again: ist framing though a little viewfinder the right way to frame a picture for aou? or are you an SLR (or EVF) kind of photographer? then the SL might be of better choice for you...

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Vf magnification is a thing of, foremost, ease of composition. Not about focusing accuracy, which is negligible.

 

I have a marked lreference for 0.58, even for a 50mm lens. What I see in the vf simply snaps. My eyes don't have to wander around the whole projected image.

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arno_nyhm posted:

 

"because using a rangefinder - and especially Leica M- is all about composing the image in your mind. you do not really "need" the finder to find your picture or to compose it. you already "know" where it is and how it will look. you just need the finder, to hold the camera in the right way to take the picture you desire".

 

arno, that's an amazing thought, so simple, so true, completely takes away all confusion - and with experience one will learn how to position to adjust for parallax-error. Considering I wear glasses, if I were to go .58  - would it be more difficult focusing a 50mm Noct. 1.0 than using the .72 that you recommended?

 

ziggy

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I think the .72x is the best choice for most unless you fall into a certain extreme. Let's use 28/35/50 as our reference points. 

 

If you primarily (as in almost always) use 28mm, a .58x finder would be ideal.

If your primarily way of seeing is a 35mm then the .72x is in my opinion the ideal frame.

If you live at 50mm (or longer) then a .85x (or a .9x in the case of the M3) would be the most useful option to utilize. 

 

The reason I say .72x is the best for most is that it does all of these things fairly well, I can comfortably shoot with a 28, a 35, a 50 and if I try, a 90. It's not the ideal for every scenario, but it is more than functional enough for most of them. 

 

That's just my thought.

 

(As a side note: One could always buy a second body if you wanted multiple VF magnifications ;) )

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Anyway, the Noctilux is no more or less precise in focusing than an Elmar-M for instance. It is just that errors will show up more clearly. For loss of focus accuracy you need to look to longer lenses. Still most of us manage the APO Telyt.

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Many thanks to all of you for your great advice. Many of you said the some things in a roundabout way - Like :

 

Look on the vf more for composing, not focusing.

 

With practice you could make all three vf focus. (.58 .72 .85)

 

Compose the shot in my mind, then just shoot - don't get too hung up on the frame lines - with experience it will all work out.

 

Strong and constructive cases were made for both the .58 and .72.

 

Today, Sat am (Australia) I'll be going to a Leica dealer to look through several vf and lenses.

 

Thanks again - I'll report in with my findings.

 

ziggy

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Considering I wear glasses, if I were to go .58  - would it be more difficult focusing a 50mm Noct. 1.0 than using the .72 (...)?

 

ziggy

 

as i hear, the noctilux 1.0 is not a beginners lens. focussing the Noctilux 1.0 is an issue with any magnification of rangefinder. at least i think so from what i read on the web. but that has nothing to do with magnification but with the way the lens works. as i read, it tends to shift focus when stopped down or up. of course the rangefinder will not be able to compensate this. the user will have to do this. this can only be done with a lot of experience. once you have this experience, wich magnification you use will be none of your concerns anymore and you wil be able to work with either magmnification as good as with the others.

 

but you might have some preferences. but you sure already have these preferences .

 

by the way: myself i never used anything better than 50/2.0 on a rangefinder and i already find it hard enough to focus these.

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as i hear, the noctilux 1.0 is not a beginners lens. focussing the Noctilux 1.0 is an issue with any magnification of rangefinder. at least i think so from what i read on the web. but that has nothing to do with magnification but with the way the lens works. as i read, it tends to shift focus when stopped down or up. of course the rangefinder will not be able to compensate this. the user will have to do this. this can only be done with a lot of experience. once you have this experience, wich magnification you use will be none of your concerns anymore and you wil be able to work with either magmnification as good as with the others.

 

but you might have some preferences. but you sure already have these preferences .

 

by the way: myself i never used anything better than 50/2.0 on a rangefinder and i already find it hard enough to focus these.

 

 

 

W O W ! ! ! . . . Very interesting - Are there any Noct 1.0 users out there that would like to throw their hat in the ring?

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I think the .72x is the best choice for most unless you fall into a certain extreme. Let's use 28/35/50 as our reference points. 

 

If you primarily (as in almost always) use 28mm, a .58x finder would be ideal.

If your primarily way of seeing is a 35mm then the .72x is in my opinion the ideal frame.

If you live at 50mm (or longer) then a .85x (or a .9x in the case of the M3) would be the most useful option to utilize. 

 

The reason I say .72x is the best for most is that it does all of these things fairly well, I can comfortably shoot with a 28, a 35, a 50 and if I try, a 90. It's not the ideal for every scenario, but it is more than functional enough for most of them. 

 

That's just my thought.

 

(As a side note: One could always buy a second body if you wanted multiple VF magnifications ;) )

 

 

This is a very well reasoned response. However I would add the following:

 

If you wear glasses, and you like a little more space around the 35mm frame lines, the 0.58 is ideal for two reasons. Firstly, it does not have the 135 frame lines accompanying the 35 frame lines. The 35 frame lines appear alone, and without distraction. Secondly, the 35 in a 0.58 will appear exactly as a 50 in a 0.72. The extra space around the frame lines in both cases I find facilitates better composition, as one can see outside the frame. This is truly one of the joys, and benefits, of rangefinders.

 

I use the 0.58 (MP) exclusively for 35mm. If I get a 28mm in the future, I will use it for that too. For a 50, I use the 0.72 (M2). 

 

I do not wear glasses, and I would not attempt to use a 0.72 for the 28mm. Having said that, for a 35 it is also excellent, but if you are a glasses wearer, I suspect the 35 frame lines would appear very "tight". 

 

The simple answer: if only one, get the 0.72, otherwise a 0.58 and a 0.72 (or 0.85).

 

in any event, please, try them all first. It is different for everyone. Eyesight and face shape both play a part.

 

Cheers,

 

J

Edited by Mute-on
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W O W ! ! ! . . . Very interesting - Are there any Noct 1.0 users out there that would like to throw their hat in the ring?

 

 

I have a 1.0/50 Noctilux v3 and .72 finders on my M cameras. I have no major problems whatsoever beyond those intrinsic to a lens that has a very narrow DOF when used wide open and some focus shift.

 

Where in Australia are you?

 

Regards,

Mark

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I mostly use the 50mm and other times the 35 lens is best. The 50 poses no problem for me, an eyeglass wearer, with the M2 and M4. However, with the M3 it is a slight problem due to the higher magnification. The frame lines are not as centered in the viewfinder as with the other two cameras.

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Try and get to a store where you can look at both versions of the viewfinder and make your own decision. I'm sure you will have a definite preference for one or the other and only you can really decide that.

 

I don't think this would necessarily work. As a glasses wearer it is very easy to be wowed by all the space a .58 finder gives but looking through the finder doesn't meet the everyday demands of using it. Well, at least it was like that for me.

 

My .58 M7 never got used beyond a couple of films because I kept going back to the .72 finder of my M6. The .58 is a nightmare of tiny frameline boxes that do nothing at all for a glasses wearer because not only are your glasses keeping the eye away from the eyepiece, but the view you then get makes it feel like you are being kept even further away from seeing what is happening in the world. The .58 and .85 are specialist viewfinder magnifications for a second camera.

 

 

Steve

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