State of S

[Guest chipcarterdc]

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Interesting. I have both the 007 and the 006 and haven't noticed any appreciable difference in skin tones. (I'm now using a custom profile for each, so I *really* don't see any difference in skin tones. But even using the generic profiles previously, I didn't notice an appreciable skin tone difference.)

 

I do prefer the color of the 006. Skin tone ooc is unsurpassed. But I miss the live view and ISO of the 007. If the 006 didn't fall in my lap for an absurdly low price, I'd have preferred the 007, but it did.

 

--Matt

[mgrayson3]

It's not just skin, but wood and grass. In almost every picture I see they look a bit fake in a color-by-numbers way. When I see a photo where they look completely natural, it's frequently an S2 or (006). 

 

I'm fully ready to believe it's my imagination, although I did compare both bodies. I'm also certainly willing to admit that it's profiles. The (006) was 1/4 the price, though, so that made it a good "entry level" choice. The lenses will still be there if and when I upgrade   .

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[hoppyman]

Paul J, I guess that each of us judges for ourselves on our wants/needs and what the forum reports of good and bad experiences reflect on the system across the world?

Perhaps it's known here that I haven't had any issues with my S2 and now S (Typ 007) and my lenses after ~20,000 exposures so far.

 

I can comment on some aspects if that may help some in the thread?
In my experience, output from the highest resolution/best lenses 24x36 sensor cameras is just not the same regarding dynamic range for example. The files are just different  (just checked and I have 24,000+  exposures in my catalog from M9 and M (Typ 240).  White balance in camera and colour rendering have been consistently more 'natural' in camera in my experience too.

 

Peter Karbe from their optics design team has previously stated that the sensor physical size can not be larger in any future S cameras although the lenses can potentially out-resolve the current and next generation sensors (paraphrasing there).

What that means for any future S sensors would be a guess.

 

Although I think that it will always remain a sensitive topic with R system devotees, I think that the cancellation of the system and the proposed R10 was pretty well discussed and argued over and over. Stefan Daniel announced this to a forum meeting in Hessenpark back in 2009.
That  would be very old technology in digital terms were it existing now.
Again in my view the SL looks to bring a lot of new capabilities . For myself it will be a useful complement and backup to the S system (If I can sell enough stuff to pay for it) and once the adapters exist too. It still has some limitations in firmware that frustrate me personally. 

 

In that regard, while I think that the S (Typ 007) is superior in nearly every way to my previous S2 it has some remaining frustrations too, things my S2 could do that my new camera cannot as yet. I hope that  they are part of future firmware updates.

I can say too that my M system just doesnt get used at all now for MY photography interests.

Edited April 6, 2016 by hoppyman

[Paul J]

Paul J, I guess that each of us judges for ourselves on our wants/needs and what the forum reports of good and bad experiences reflect on the system across the world?

Perhaps it's known here that I haven't had any issues with my S2 and now S (Typ 007) and my lenses after ~20,000 exposures so far.

 

I can comment on some aspects if that may help some in the thread?

In my experience, output from the highest resolution/best lenses 24x36 sensor cameras is just not the same regarding dynamic range for example. The files are just different  (just checked and I have 24,000+  exposures in my catalog from M9 and M (Typ 240).  White balance in camera and colour rendering have been consistently more 'natural' in camera in my experience too.

 

Peter Karbe from their optics design team has previously stated that the sensor physical size can not be larger in any future S cameras although the lenses can potentially out-resolve the current and next generation sensors (paraphrasing there).

What that means for any future S sensors would be a guess.

 

Although I think that it will always remain a sensitive topic with R system devotees, I think that the cancellation of the system and the proposed R10 was pretty well discussed and argued over and over. Stefan Daniel announced this to a forum meeting in Hessenpark back in 2009.

That  would be very old technology in digital terms were it existing now.

Again in my view the SL looks to bring a lot of new capabilities . For myself it will be a useful complement and backup to the S system (If I can sell enough stuff to pay for it) and once the adapters exist too. It still has some limitations in firmware that frustrate me personally. 

 

In that regard, while I think that the S (Typ 007) is superior in nearly every way to my previous S2 it has some remaining frustrations too, things my S2 could do that my new camera cannot as yet. I hope that  they are part of future firmware updates.

 

I can say too that my M system just doesnt get used at all now for MY photography interests.

Thanks Geoff, insights appreciated. Good to hear you've not had issues with the system. It's hard to gauge these issues on a forum where many come with bad news.

 

I'm not disputing the superiority over 135, it is plain to see. However, I am questioning it's current relevance, Leica's commitment to the system, and it's stagnant resolution upgrade since the S2's launch and how relatively that fits within other brand offerings. I'm sure most appreciate that investing £20-30K in a new system is best done with question and caution for both short and long term.

 

Which things do you find better about the S2?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Paul J

[albertknappmd]

Allow me to pitch in: I do not see any difference in color or resolution from CCD to CMOS. I have made my own color profile in LR which is slightly more punchy than the standard LR profile.

 

I have used the S006 in well-lit weddings up to ISO800, but it works best as a daylight camera.

 

I prefer to shoot at 1/3x <lens mm>, it is vulnerable to camera shake, and with motion blur you lose the advantage of the MF resolution. This means I hit the ceiling even outside in forests, in some overcast weather etc. Being able to bump up the ISO saves the image by getting short enough exposure time.

 

With CMOS you also get EVF (and video). I don't use video much, but find EVF useful for example with the 180mm on a tripod. I think this lens is difficult to focus close to infinity. I also think the top display on the S007 that shows focus range can be very helpful.

 

That said, the S007 feels more modern, tighter, faster, it has a faster processor and larger buffer.

 

David Farkas has a very good walk-thrugh of the differences between the two models here: http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/09/leica-s-typ-007-review/

Great news indeed!

Looking forward to being very pleasantly surprised!

Albert     

 

BTW when you say you prefer to shoot at 1/3 x lens mm are you saying for example that you would take a 120mm lens and use a speed of 1/40? Doubtful..

Edited April 6, 2016 by albertknappmd

[alan.y]

It's not just skin, but wood and grass. In almost every picture I see they look a bit fake in a color-by-numbers way. When I see a photo where they look completely natural, it's frequently an S2 or (006). 

 

I'm fully ready to believe it's my imagination, although I did compare both bodies. I'm also certainly willing to admit that it's profiles. The (006) was 1/4 the price, though, so that made it a good "entry level" choice. The lenses will still be there if and when I upgrade   .

 

 

I seem to be in the minority in preferring the colours out of the S007. I found that by default the S2 files were oversaturated. And under artificial lighting the auto white balance was often wildly inaccurate. The S007 colours are more natural, and to me more pleasing and requiring less processing.

[349A]

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On my 006, I find skin tones out of camera to be perfection. Anything I do to adjust them only makes them worse- anything. I also find the auto WB nails it under a variety of conditions, I have yet to find any image that really needed WB adjustments besides artistic license. Much better than any camera I have owned. I wonder why your S2 was so far off at times. 

[erlingmm]

 

 

BTW when you say you prefer to shoot at 1/3 x lens mm are you saying for example that you would take a 120mm lens and use a speed of 1/40? Doubtful..

 

 

Sorry for the unclear notation, in this case I mean 1/3*120 = 1/360

[ZHNL]

I won't make S as my sole system as I don't have the money and strength pack two S body with a few duplicate S lens travel around the world.  and I enjoy small system like Sony sometime, and also I enjoy manual focus with fast R glass and really love the wide angle and DR Nikon system can give me for landscape.  But, I am not regret entering S system, The lens and S file combo are the best I ever had from any system. There are great or even better lens out there or great system can do pretty much everything more efficiently, but none of them can get file as beautiful as S with right condition. 

[Jon Warwick]

Medium Format in other brands has moved on - will Leica?

...... especially pertinent noting forum comments elsewhere about what Hasselblad is potentially about to announce ......

[349A]

H6D-100c, H6D-50c and Phocus 3.0

 

HARDWARE:

A) The interface, with the replacement of the old firewire with the more modern USB3 
Audio and mini HDMI to connect to external display, this feature leads to the possibility to implement 4k/8K audio video recording by a firmware upgrade to come...

FIRMWARE:
A) ISO 12800 & 25600
Sync Speed from 1/2000 to 60min. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by 349A

[Paul J]

The new Blad is impressive

 

100MP FF645 CMOS

iso 64-12800

500mbs 4K Motion

Dual CFast & SD

1/2000th flash sync

USB 3, Touchscreen, Phocus 3

3 year warranty & 40% cheaper than the Phase One.

[ynp]

It's interesting that they announced the new fast leaf shutters and upgraded lenses.

 

I wonder if the Leica H-adapter would support the new HC lenses.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[leicapages]

Paul,

you raise some very valid points that I have been pondering on a lot myself before making the jump. I hope the one on reliability is being solved. I would almost guess it is the case as I can see that the autofocus mechanism of my two lenses was pro-actively "adjusted" in Wetzlar, and at least one of them with an AF piece exchanged, as part of an equipment maintenance check. As for the long term viability of the system, I really hope we do not see a repeat of the R scenario. Medium format is indeed moving on in terms of resolution, and today Hasselblad has announced its H6D with no less than 100 million pixels. Even if one does not need such huge resolution (with all the assorted troubles in terms of file size, computer power, storage and so on) for most practical purposes, in terms of "P.R." it just makes the S looks rather "entry-level". That said, the S does not really compete with the typical medium format systems, which are scalable and modular and bigger, but is meant as a medium format with ease of use and size/weight of a DSLR. It is the final sum of all elements towards an image that counts in the end. But, granted, some people will be lured away by the high end medium format and the high end DSLR, whereas the S seems to fall in between. Time will tell. Meanwhile, enjoy shooting

(and, BTW, I would certainly not consider the SL an S replacement: just take a look at the viewfinder or the less than stellar ease of holdling of the body)

Pascal

Edited April 7, 2016 by leicapages

[ZHNL]

Well said. I don't really need more pix than 36M, but that doesn't mean Leica don't need up their game for a premium system with red dot. Competing with consumer electronics giant like Canon, Sony and Nikon for feature set is wrong direction IMHO.

 

I personally would love to see a summilux type standard prime lens and higher resolution sensor coming. Of course would love to see improvement on reliability and AF accuracy, but I admit it's AF is good enough for me as is even with quirk.

[hoppyman]

Paul J , of course I'm not questioning your judgement at all. I'm just providing another experience for the thread discussion. As you mentioned problem reports can be prominent in forum discussions.

 

The S2 functions that I would like to have in my S (Typ 007) are probably just different decisions in the original firmware design (and I will guess could be implemented in a future firmware?). Just minor functionality differences regarding writing to the memory cards. I tend to shoot nearly always in studio with these cameras and sometimes quite rapid series.
When I got the S2 the card I used was an SDHC (from my M) and I found that the buffer full delay was happening a lot (for those fast series). I bought some 120MB/s CF cards which helped a lot. With the S2 where I wanted to shoot both DNG and JPEG,  you can nominate that the DNG files are written to the faster card and the JPEGs to the other (SDHC). 
The S (Typ 007) currently won't let you do that. With both cards fitted it stubbornly insists on writing to my 95MB/s SDHC card first  (if shooting only DNG). If I shoot DNG and JPEG then it insists on writing both formats to the same card. (actually saved me once when I wrongly shut off the camera when tethering and not everything was written to the CF card!)
If you delete an image in camera it deletes BOTH copies (off both cards) with no choice to navigate to the specific card. I haven't bothered with the JPEGs at all now  with a second copy of each DNG written to the backup card. The buffer performance is so much improved though that I just never see that limitation (and I've shot 1400 exposures in a couple of hours on one occasion).

On colour rendering from CCD vs CMOS I never did any formal comparison and actually haven't noticed. I use AWB in camera, shoot DNG and use the default and only Adobe profile when importing in LR. That reflects on the way I use the camera though. I have barely shot a couple of hundred frames outside to comment on skin/foliage etc default rendering. In studio I use a colour swatch calibration shot for each series where lighting and setting don't change.

On the Hasselblads and the Phaseones, I have no experiences and I absolutely don't doubt that they are marvellous capable machines. The Hasselblad focus functions look especially attractive. It's not often that you can say this about Leica products but the S (Typ 007 ) is positively cheap in comparison to the newest higher resolution sensor models!

 

If there is to be an S (Typ 008?) it will be very interesting to say the least what the changes will be. One prediction is that it will have an EVF like the SL and I am going to need to see that for myself to be convinced when the optical finder is so impressive.
 
 

Edited April 7, 2016 by hoppyman

[mjrp]

Afternoon

 

As a previous S shooter with 006 and 007 bodies, and now a Phase shooter with an XF and IQ260, I can honestly say that increasing mp's does very little in terms of image quality, they are just bigger files. I bought the Phase because I wanted to use a tech camera for a contract with full movements and for that, the P1 is excellent, but having 60mp does not make me happier than when I owned the S. I would return to the S in a heartbeat when this contract is finished, if I could have afforded both I would have kept the 006. Large files are great for lots of reasons but for usability and ergonomics, the S is in a class of its own, just turning the focusing ring with the Schneider LS lenses is horrible compared with the feel of the S lenses and the extra bulk is pretty noticeable although the tech cam is always on a tripod.

 

I have files from the S reproduced on display stands 6m wide and they look amazing, I have a stitched P1 image being printed at the moment 6m wide for a job so will be interesting to see what difference there is but if you aren't regularly printing that big then the quality of the file from the S for me loses nothing to higher mp cameras. For what it's worth, as a commercial photographer, 37mp does absolutely everything a client has ever asked me for, just a shame there are no t/s lenses! There will always be those wanting or needing 100mp and it's great there are options available but for pure image quality at reasonable file sizes, the S is unbeatable in my view.

 

Mat

 

[erlingmm]

I think it also comes down to usage scenarios, or versatility.

 

I admit that I have never worked with one of the cameras based on digital backs, but they look clumsy to me. I had friends with the Pentax, but I dismissed it solely on ergonomics.

 

The backs are probably good for tripod work, for dedicated landscape shooters, and pro fashion photography. I use the S as any other camera, over the shoulder when I travel (Norway, Havana, California, New York, Las Vegas, Europe, soon Africa), for weddings and family, in addition to dedicated landscape shots on tripod.

 

I think the S is ergonomically perfect, and for my type of shooting more mpix would not add much, it is more the MF perspective that makes it special than the mpx per se.

 

A T/S wide angle would help, also better integration with flash systems like ProPhoto.

 

Still, I think Leica will feel the pressure in the market from Hasselblad, although the specs are not that different except the resolution. They may have to lower the price of the S slightly, and I would guess the next version would be 50-60 mpix, launched at Photokina, and delivered September 2017 (!?!?)

Edited April 8, 2016 by erlingmm

[Paul J]

I use a Hasselblad and P65+ for years and while it's more bulky I can not agree with it being clumsy, or difficult to use except for when used with long lenses where it is not so well balanced, but I expect the same for the S with 200mm and longer too. I am not a tripod shooter, I hand hold the H Blad at quite slow speeds without issue - it's an exceptionally well designed and dampened system. Despite its bulk, it is not too heavy. It really can be used as a point and shoot and the new CMOS backs make that an even better proposition. The IQ from the 60MP Phase One continues to see me through and was probably the best investment I've ever made with gear given its relative age in the digital world and the fact the IQ360 has the same sensor. Comparing it with the previous P45+, the difference in resolution is notable and a move to 100MP I think will be significant again.

 

However, the S is ergonomically better again, being smaller than a Canon 1D series. It has a lot going for it, and for me, the lenses and their rendering is what I feel the S System has over any other medium format system with the potential of gaining in resolution at some later date - but this remains the sticking point - when or even if it happens. Will Leica really release a 60MP S by this Photokina? I don't think so. I think it is more likely to be 2 later at Photokina 2018 which presents a problem for me and the remainder of the issues I raised in my original post remain.

 

I won't be rushing into any decision as it's a significant amount to invest but if a deal did arise that was worth it I would probably jump in. The new Hasselblad certainly makes a compelling option... If Leica knocked the top off their pricing and released a 70mm Summilux that would certainly get me motivated also.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Paul J

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[tthorne]

Afternoon

 

As a previous S shooter with 006 and 007 bodies, and now a Phase shooter with an XF and IQ260, I can honestly say that increasing mp's does very little in terms of image quality, they are just bigger files. I bought the Phase because I wanted to use a tech camera for a contract with full movements and for that, the P1 is excellent, but having 60mp does not make me happier than when I owned the S. I would return to the S in a heartbeat when this contract is finished, if I could have afforded both I would have kept the 006. Large files are great for lots of reasons but for usability and ergonomics, the S is in a class of its own, just turning the focusing ring with the Schneider LS lenses is horrible compared with the feel of the S lenses and the extra bulk is pretty noticeable although the tech cam is always on a tripod.

 

I have files from the S reproduced on display stands 6m wide and they look amazing, I have a stitched P1 image being printed at the moment 6m wide for a job so will be interesting to see what difference there is but if you aren't regularly printing that big then the quality of the file from the S for me loses nothing to higher mp cameras. For what it's worth, as a commercial photographer, 37mp does absolutely everything a client has ever asked me for, just a shame there are no t/s lenses! There will always be those wanting or needing 100mp and it's great there are options available but for pure image quality at reasonable file sizes, the S is unbeatable in my view.

 

Mat

 

 

Right there with you. Larger files than what I get already out of the 007 have the potential to be a great headache. I update my Mac computers with almost every cycle, and while my tower is extremely robust, the highest end laptop they offer really struggles with the huge 100MP files I tried on it. There are times, to be honest, where I do want to access files on the laptop, and that would just make me crazy. I also agree that practical usage for commercial work would yield very few advantages that clients might actually be able to articulate. 

 

I am in the same boat as you with the need for movements, though, and it is a frustrating dilemma. While I have gotten used to shooting without my movements and working around the limitation, a wide T/S, like 30mm, would REALLY make a difference to me. It would be the lens that would get me to buy a 2nd 007 actually. So currently I am also looking at a P1 system and a tech camera instead to use along side my 007, but I really wish I didn't have to. The tech cameras obviously offer more by way of movements, but for my work, I could get along just fine with a T/S lens on the 007 and would actually prefer it. 

 

If anyone from Leica is listening, please PM me and tell me to stop shopping for a P1 because you have a 30mm T/S on the way. Then prepare to ship me another 007.