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State of S


Paul J

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I've been seriously considering the S, but what to make of its future?

 

It's currently plagued by unreliability with seemingly no real solution other than (please correct if wrong) fudge-fixes, delays and expense, and continued threat of sudden death failures while shooting.

 

While it's output is stunning, and lens quality wonderful, it's resolution has become the elephant in the room. Will it ever change? When? 135 Formats are closing the gap on cameras like the S, have been doing so for some time, and it seems to be accelerating faster than we can imagine. 80MP models are not far off, they are even rumoured for Photokina, so what is left for the S? One would hope, sinking such a large sum in the system, this would be upgraded in time, but there has been no sign of such growth and I'm no longer sure it's going to happen with Leica. Medium Format in other brands has moved on - will Leica? Will there be new lenses? are there any signs of development? Will it be another 3 years?

 

Is the SL poised to take the place of the S? At this point in time, it's quite possible. Leica don't have a great track record, dumping the R and leaving their users in the lurch.

 

I have been seriously considering the S, and I continue to wonder, but these are the issues and questions I have which are turning me off. So what do we know?

Edited by Paul J
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"I've been seriously considering the S, but what to make of its future?

 

It's currently plagued by unreliability with seemingly no real solution other than (please correct if wrong) fudge-fixes, delays and expense, and continued threat of sudden death failures while shooting."

 

I may not be the best one to answer your questions nor do I use the S in a pro way. As for unreliability, the main issue appears to be some have had multiple AF failures in the lenses. Leica is covering these, even out of warranty for free- delay yes, expensse, no. Fudge-fixes and sudden death are new concepts to me, where have you seen reports of sudden death or the need for fudge-fixes? Any product from any maker can fail, I have not read reports of many body issues although you would always expect some from any model/maker. It seems to be mostly a AF problem due to a small plastic gear that fails.

 

"While it's output is stunning, and lens quality wonderful, it's resolution has become the elephant in the room. Will it ever change? When? 135 Formats are closing the gap on cameras like the S, have been doing so for some time, and it seems to be accelerating faster than we can imagine. 80MP models are not far off, they are even rumoured for Photokina, so what is left for the S? One would hope, sinking such a large sum in the system, this would be upgraded in time, but there has been no sign of such growth and I'm no longer sure it's going to happen with Leica. Medium Format in other brands has moved on - will Leica? Will there be new lenses? are there any signs of development? Will it be another 3 years?"

 

Key phrases here are output is stunning and lens quality is wonderful. Here I am speaking for myself, I don't enlarge in a way that would ever test the limits of 37mp. I have seen super high quality blow ups that were 6' tall or so with incredible resolution. Other than the usual mentality we all have of "I want more", other than a number spec, what is really necessary? According to Leica, they have bias of course, the mp would need to double for any real improvement. I would guess the S008 will have 60mp. The more important aspect is the sensor itself rather than how many MP. The MP race, in my opinion, is a large part marketing. I'm sure some need to do massive crops and need the MP, I would bet for most its a nonissue except psychologically.

 

New lenses- many have asked for a wide T/S, I would hope they would respond with one. Between the pretty solid line up from 24-180mm, the ease of using Contax and Hasselblad lenses with adapters, I'm not sure what else is really necessary. For me, anyway. I have the 24, 30-90, 70, 100 and 120mm. Nore than enough for me although my OCD may wind up buying me a 30, 35 or 45 eventually. 

 

I don't feel 135 is catching up, maybe in MP but not in look. Nothing I have seen has the MF look. I see that look from my legacy 22mp back on my Alpa as well as from the S and my Hasselblad CFV-50C/Alpa. Thats 22mp, 37.5mp, 50mp. No 135 can match even that old 22mp back. Only in spec, not in reality.

 

"Is the SL poised to take the place of the S? At this point in time, it's quite possible. Leica don't have a great track record, dumping the R and leaving their users in the lurch."

 

Can't answer that one, I doubt it although I am very excited for the S lens adapter to be available so I can use my SL as a low light body for my S system.

 

"I have been seriously considering the S, and I continue to wonder, but these are the issues and questions I have which are turning me off. So what do we know?"

 

unfortunately, we can inly guess what is going on internally at Leica. The S007 was just released so it doesn't seem they are dumping it. If its a failure saleswise, maybe they would. Who could blame a company for that.

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I am on S007, after S2 and S006. I have a decent set of lenses. I think the camera is ergonomically perfect.

 

The main advantage of the 007 over the 006 is that you can bump up the ISO to get sufficient shutter speed to get the full quality potential of the camera. MF is more sensitive to camera shake. I use it a lot handheld, but also on tripod for landscapes, and travel with it.

 

One lens has failed on me, the 120CS, repaired under warranty. I am totally in love with the 24. The zoom makes it a walk-around (had it a week in Havana), 100 for portraits, the 120 macro is ultra-sharp.

 

I recently went through all my 2015 pictures (S, SL (briefly), and M systems), 9 out of 10 best pictures were the S. It has a certain look that I think is more "MF" than it is resolution per se.

 

I expect Leica to increase the resolution to 50 or beyond, possibly already at the upcoming Photokina (plus 1 year before delivery ;-) 

An upgrade to the sensor would obviously affect the used price. The question is: Would I see a difference? I just printed a few landscapes 50*70cm, fantastic "3-dimensionality", cannot ask for more.

 

I am looking forward to the S-adapter for the SL, SL not as a back-up, more the option to juggle 2 bodies with S optics.

 

If you are unsure, one option might be to get a (lightly) used S006, and build a set of lenses. The S006 is fantastic up to ISO 800, love the look and colors.

Edited by erlingmm
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I may not be the best one to answer your questions nor do I use the S in a pro way. As for unreliability, the main issue appears to be some have had multiple AF failures in the lenses. Leica is covering these, even out of warranty for free- delay yes, expensse, no. Fudge-fixes and sudden death are new concepts to me, where have you seen reports of sudden death or the need for fudge-fixes? Any product from any maker can fail, I have not read reports of many body issues although you would always expect some from any model/maker. It seems to be mostly a AF problem due to a small plastic gear that fails.

 

The thread on 'S006 Focus Error' relates to issues within the camera AF system, and different results compared with manual focus, particularly at long distance (front focus).  Entirely different issue than lens mechanics.  A post today from Menos points to a laborious solution...  http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/256088-s-006-focus-error/?p=3020963

 

Of course if you never actually read the threads, you're bound to keep repeating the same half-true generalizations.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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A forum is a place where people come to complain. Some are more loud complainers than others. Some are serial complainers. Some of these serial complainers don't even own the products in question.

 

I never said no problems ever. It just doesn't seem to be that common. A forum will always be slanted towards problems, people go to forums to find help. The only seemingly common failure is the AF focus motor gear which Leica has acknowledged and is repairing for free indefinitely.

 

I actually own the S system. No problems at all so far. Just stellar handling and output. Look at the S image thread to see some wonderful examples.

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The S system does have issues with AF but once the lens is fixed, no further problems in my experience which dates back to 2011... The final "product" is simply outstanding and is worth the aggravation. I just upgraded to the 007 and can't wait to shoot at ISO 1600...

Albert  :)  :)  :)

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Albert,

 

Not to veer off topic but can you give some first hand comparisons of the 006 to 007? Higher iso is interesting. Any trade offs from CCD to CMOS? Its a big $$ jump for a few more stops, would appreciate some insight from an actual owner. I find the 006 images spectacular right OOC but of course have hit the iso wall often.

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Albert,

 

Not to veer off topic but can you give some first hand comparisons of the 006 to 007? Higher iso is interesting. Any trade offs from CCD to CMOS? Its a big $$ jump for a few more stops, would appreciate some insight from an actual owner. I find the 006 images spectacular right OOC but of course have hit the iso wall often.

 

 

Allow me to pitch in: I do not see any difference in color or resolution from CCD to CMOS. I have made my own color profile in LR which is slightly more punchy than the standard LR profile.

 

I have used the S006 in well-lit weddings up to ISO800, but it works best as a daylight camera.

 

I prefer to shoot at 1/3x <lens mm>, it is vulnerable to camera shake, and with motion blur you lose the advantage of the MF resolution. This means I hit the ceiling even outside in forests, in some overcast weather etc. Being able to bump up the ISO saves the image by getting short enough exposure time.

 

With CMOS you also get EVF (and video). I don't use video much, but find EVF useful for example with the 180mm on a tripod. I think this lens is difficult to focus close to infinity. I also think the top display on the S007 that shows focus range can be very helpful.

 

That said, the S007 feels more modern, tighter, faster, it has a faster processor and larger buffer.

 

David Farkas has a very good walk-thrugh of the differences between the two models here: http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/09/leica-s-typ-007-review/

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Thank you, good insight. I was hoping the CCD was better in some way:)

 

The low iso is definitely an issue at times. I've found that 1/250th is a nice place to be. I have had some luck slower when I haven't had a pot of coffee and I focus on breathing technique. Higher iso would make life easier.

 

The rest is nice to have but not critical for me. Iso is the main advantage as I see it.

 

Sorry for derailing the thread!

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No problem, these are exactly the considerations people have when they consider upgrading. I agree that with some concentration and shot discipline you can shoot at lower speeds, but I also like to use the camera in more spontaneous, hand-held situations, and with the zoom which is not as strong aperture-wise as the primes.

 

There was a big discussion on CCD vs CMOS, but I think is has faded out, it was difficult to pinpoint any systematic difference. But I loved the 006, and would have loved to keep it, but a got a decent price for it that helped the upgrade.

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A forum is a place where people come to complain. Some are more loud complainers than others. Some are serial complainers. Some of these serial complainers don't even own the products in question.

 

I never said no problems ever. It just doesn't seem to be that common. A forum will always be slanted towards problems, people go to forums to find help. The only seemingly common failure is the AF focus motor gear which Leica has acknowledged and is repairing for free indefinitely.

 

I actually own the S system. No problems at all so far. Just stellar handling and output. Look at the S image thread to see some wonderful examples.

 

Many more folks come here to help, to ask questions, to entertain, to post photos, to share stories, and lots more.  Complaints are one of many topics, but not remotely close to being the most frequent....that would include bag/strap threads, along with 'what camera/lens' should I purchase or take on vacation.

 

You've been a forum participant only a very short while, with frequent posts in multiple sub-forums, repeating the same unilaterally positive view of all things Leica.  And often condescending to those who may have a different take on a particular issue.  Many folks, myself included, have a very positive, but also a more balanced view of things....not afraid to express very occasional concerns where warranted.   Lately, the topic of QC has become more evident, reflecting the introduction of multiple new Leica products.  (The Q seems to have been immune to this.....kudos to Leica.)  

 

We all want Leica to succeed and to continue to sell and service products for a long time to come.   Most of us have been loyal and long time Leica users.  I've used their products for over 35 years (M system and R system), with relatively few issues.   We've been around long enough, too, to know that things can go south quickly.   I believe the Leica forum plays a unique role in helping to ensure that customer and company communications remain robust....that's surely not its major role, but at times an important one.

 

I don't own the S, but have come close to buying one, refraining...for now... to see how the dust settles around some key concerns.  I've shot with it and VF is gorgeous, along with the files.  I don't need forum pics to show me this....I make my own test  prints for that.  Leica has always addressed issues that are broad-based in nature....and I don't doubt they will sort these as well....or perhaps the SL signifies a shift.  We'll see.  I skipped the M8 and the M9, and waited for the better sorted M8.2 and M240.  So far that strategy seems to have worked for me.  And, in the meantime, my current gear still does the job.

 

Jeff

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I've mostly stuck with my CCD cameras M9, M9M and 006 because of a certain natural look I perceive either real or imagined. Maybe a bit of rose tinted glasses... I'm not quite sure. My Alpa set up is now CMOS (also have a CCD back) and along with the Rodenstock lenses gives another look that the CCD Leica's do not. I like both and no longer feel CCD is the only way. However, the upcharge to a 007 is giving me pause. I'm also a spontaneous shooter, I see it, I snap it. Not much planning and CMOS allows that a bit better. In the end, its about getting the shot. I appreciate the thoughts provided. Sleeplessness is coming!

 

Again, sorry to the OP for derailing the thread.

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I've been seriously considering the S, but what to make of its future?

 

It's currently plagued by unreliability with seemingly no real solution other than (please correct if wrong) fudge-fixes, delays and expense, and continued threat of sudden death failures while shooting.

 

While it's output is stunning, and lens quality wonderful, it's resolution has become the elephant in the room. Will it ever change? When? 135 Formats are closing the gap on cameras like the S, have been doing so for some time, and it seems to be accelerating faster than we can imagine. 80MP models are not far off, they are even rumoured for Photokina, so what is left for the S? One would hope, sinking such a large sum in the system, this would be upgraded in time, but there has been no sign of such growth and I'm no longer sure it's going to happen with Leica. Medium Format in other brands has moved on - will Leica? Will there be new lenses? are there any signs of development? Will it be another 3 years?

 

Is the SL poised to take the place of the S? At this point in time, it's quite possible. Leica don't have a great track record, dumping the R and leaving their users in the lurch.

 

I have been seriously considering the S, and I continue to wonder, but these are the issues and questions I have which are turning me off. So what do we know?

It is a great question. Given I am VERY close to dumping my M240 and lenses potentially for an S006 +70mm, but your comments are reflected in my own thinking, especially given i see modular MF camera systems (e.g., Phase One, Alpa) that seem to be advancing very rapidly in terms of megapixels / sensor size. Indeed, I wonder if these systems more future proof in that sense, especially given the modularity?

My other concern is that I also see a few S2s or S006s (and lenses) in the UK that are worth a fraction of their new price, and YET still don't seem to be selling especially fast -- certainly not compared to Ms, which seem to sell in a week.

I don't know if people look at the megapixel count of the S, and then on paper think "why bother?" when there are 35mm Sony's in the 40mp range now ......

I've tried the S2, S006, and S007 to test them out. All I can say in terms of observations is the following subjective view based on 30x20" crops done at 300dpi on inkjet prints (off 50x33" files) by one of London's finest labs .... (i) to me, the S range is VERY far ahead of any image quality compared to my M240 - in terms of color accuracy, acuity, tonality, 3D depth etc. The S images at 50x33" remind me very heavily of drum-scanned large format film that i used to use. It's probably NOT just a resolution thing that creates this look, indeed resolution is perhaps where the S and M are most similar on screen, and if i size the M files smaller (commensurate with 24mp vs. S's 38mp) the S prints STILL looked superior to me in terms of all those qualities i mention. So, to answer your question, i'm not sure if the SL could take the place of the S, given the differences i see are arguably more sensor size & 16-bit file driven; (ii) the S2 and S006 runs out of light quickly, in a dull day in London I was trying to use ISO 100 at F2.8 and only getting to 1/90th or 1/125th, and pretty much every shot was a bit shaky with the 70mm. Bumping up to ISO 400 got me to a reliable shutter speed though. The S007, however, gave me MUCH more flexibility in terms of shooting envelope, it was like an M240 in that sense due to "let the ISO do whatever it needs", and the S007 felt like a true throw-around camera in that sense. Prints off the S006 -- bolted on a tripod and mirror up at F8 -- are absolutely beautiful, but that small shooting window given ISO issues on CCD was the major difference (if I get an S006, I will assume using it quite a lot on tripod). The S007 files look arguably at bit more saturated out of camera, but the differences seemed subtle, and both the S006 and S007 color accuracy was remarkably good - way more accurate than my M240 in terms of out-of-camera.

So where do i stand? I'm angling towards the S006, given I think it has a blend of superb image quality for its c. 40mp (i think the S lens quality goes a VERY long way here, and maybe it allows the S to punch above its megapixel weight in terms of capturing resolution vs. some other systems?), i really ike the "look" of the prints over 35mm FF, and I see S2s or S006s +70mm lens out there for < £ 5k or < £ 6k respectively. For me personally, for that quality level of lens / sensor combo, those prices seem a good entry point into digital MF, especially when I consider that just a body alone for an SL or M isn't much less, and the S lenses are better than any M lens I've ever tried, the M 50mm APO Summi included ......

Edited by Jon Warwick
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It is a great question. Given I am VERY close to dumping my M240 and lenses potentially  for an S006 +70mm, but your comments are reflected in my own thinking, especially given i see modular MF camera systems (e.g., Phase One, Alpa) that seem to be advancing very rapidly in terms of megapixels / sensor size.  Indeed, I wonder if these systems more future proof in that sense, especially given the modularity?

My other concern is that I also see a few S2s or S006s (and lenses) in the UK that are worth a fraction of their new price, and YET still don't seem to be selling especially fast -- certainly not compared to Ms, which seem to sell in a week.

I don't know if people look at the megapixel count of the S, and then on paper think "why bother?" when there are 35mm Sony's in the 40mp range now ......

I've tried the S2, S006, and S007 to test them out.  All I can say in terms of observations is the following subjective view based on 30x20" crops done at 300dpi on inkjet prints (off 50x33" files) by one of London's finest labs .... (i) to me, the S range is VERY far ahead of any image quality compared to my M240 - in terms of color accuracy, acuity, tonality, 3D depth etc.  The S images at 50x33" remind me very heavily of drum-scanned large format film that i used to use.  It's probably NOT just a resolution thing that creates this look, indeed resolution is perhaps where the S and M are most similar on screen, and if i size the M files smaller (commensurate with 24mp vs. S's 38mp) the S prints STILL looked superior to me in terms of all those qualities i mention.  So, to answer your question, i'm not sure if the SL could take the place of the S, given the differences i see are arguably more sensor size & 16-bit file driven; (ii) the S2 and S006 runs out of light quickly, in a dull day in London I was trying to use ISO 100 at F2.8 and only getting to 1/90th or 1/125th, and pretty much every shot was a bit shaky with the 70mm.  Bumping up to ISO 400 got me to a reliable shutter speed though.  The S007, however, gave me MUCH more flexibility in terms of shooting envelope, it was like an M240 in that sense due to "let the ISO do whatever it needs", and the S007 felt like a true throw-around camera in that sense.  Prints off the S006 -- bolted on a tripod and mirror up at F8 -- are absolutely beautiful, but that small shooting window given ISO issues on CCD was the major difference (if I get an S006, I will assume using it quite a lot on tripod).  The S007 files look arguably at bit more saturated out of camera, but the differences seemed subtle, and both the S006 and S007 color accuracy was remarkably good - way more accurate than my M240 in terms of out-of-camera.

So where do i stand? I'm angling towards the S006, given I think it has a blend of superb image quality for its c. 40mp (i think the S lens quality goes a VERY long way here, and maybe it allows the S to punch above its megapixel weight in terms of capturing resolution vs. some other systems?), i really ike the "look" of the prints over 35mm FF, and I see S2s or S006s +70mm lens out there for < £ 5k or < £ 6k respectively.  To me, to get into MF with that level of lens / sensor combo, those prices seem a good entry point, especially when I consider that just a body alone for an SL or M isn't much less, and the S lenses are better than any M lens I've ever tried, the M 50mm APO Summi included ......

Hi Jon,

 

Seems you are in a similar boat to me. I'm considering dropping the M kit for the S as my "small camera" and I'm thinking of either selling the Phase One and putting it into the S (the value is ridiculous now though) or upgrading it also. Current pricing makes this possible, though I can't justify keeping the M as well. With no sign of a resolution upgrade in the S it stops any plans of leaving the Phase One as there are many times I just need the resolution. So I figure by dropping the M and picking up the S, it lifts my base line IQ and flexibility, addresses those issues I'm having there, whilst losing out on some portability/usability.

 

The S quality is stunning and stands heads and shoulders above the M. The impact is undeniable; it has a sort of detail within detail and it's richness in colour, contrast, tonality is really extraordinary. The only thing I will miss, which is still a bit of a sticking point is the look of my Noctilux, it may even be the only reason I would want to keep the M now but at the low res of the M it makes it somewhat a moot point. It's not something I've entirely decided for or against yet and it's a difficult decision to make as it is still a relevant and important aesthetic for me. I wish Leica would make a 70mm Summicron-S, or Summilux-S to match the 100 Summicron-S - that might make the decision far easier. No sign of this and likelihood seems low at this stage.

 

I don't believe the SL takes the place of the S. But I do acknowledge how the world is changing and that for an increasingly large amount of people the SL is "good enough" and placed to sell much better than the S - so the likelihood of it taking the place of the S is based on that, and in time the quality gap will likely close and/or surpass the current anyway.

 

But my concerns about the system and Leica in my original post remain and I have to say are stopping me from making this call.

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Although the tone of the OP is a bit too the sky is falling negative IMHO it is a very valid question.

 

Owning the S2 (of which one of the lenses is currently being repaired for AF failure) I am constantly asking myself whether to further invest in the S system or whether to buy into the SL...

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I may not be the best one to answer your questions nor do I use the S in a pro way. As for unreliability, the main issue appears to be some have had multiple AF failures in the lenses. Leica is covering these, even out of warranty for free- delay yes, expensse, no. Fudge-fixes and sudden death are new concepts to me, where have you seen reports of sudden death or the need for fudge-fixes? Any product from any maker can fail, I have not read reports of many body issues although you would always expect some from any model/maker. It seems to be mostly a AF problem due to a small plastic gear that fails.

 

Key phrases here are output is stunning and lens quality is wonderful. Here I am speaking for myself, I don't enlarge in a way that would ever test the limits of 37mp. I have seen super high quality blow ups that were 6' tall or so with incredible resolution. Other than the usual mentality we all have of "I want more", other than a number spec, what is really necessary? According to Leica, they have bias of course, the mp would need to double for any real improvement. I would guess the S008 will have 60mp. The more important aspect is the sensor itself rather than how many MP. The MP race, in my opinion, is a large part marketing. I'm sure some need to do massive crops and need the MP, I would bet for most its a nonissue except psychologically.

 

New lenses- many have asked for a wide T/S, I would hope they would respond with one. Between the pretty solid line up from 24-180mm, the ease of using Contax and Hasselblad lenses with adapters, I'm not sure what else is really necessary. For me, anyway. I have the 24, 30-90, 70, 100 and 120mm. Nore than enough for me although my OCD may wind up buying me a 30, 35 or 45 eventually. 

 

I don't feel 135 is catching up, maybe in MP but not in look. Nothing I have seen has the MF look. I see that look from my legacy 22mp back on my Alpa as well as from the S and my Hasselblad CFV-50C/Alpa. Thats 22mp, 37.5mp, 50mp. No 135 can match even that old 22mp back. Only in spec, not in reality.

 

Can't answer that one, I doubt it although I am very excited for the S lens adapter to be available so I can use my SL as a low light body for my S system.

 

unfortunately, we can inly guess what is going on internally at Leica. The S007 was just released so it doesn't seem they are dumping it. If its a failure saleswise, maybe they would. Who could blame a company for that.

Sudden death = lens af suddenly breaks without warning during shoot. Not something you want on an important shoot.

Fudge Fix = no lasting solution. Just replace the broken part with a new one which will again likely break.

Down time = costly. Shoot gone wrong = potentially very costly.

 

If you don't use it "in a Pro way" and don't enlarge a lot then 37Mp is plenty and I don't expect you to understand or share the same needs. No, MP upgrade is not a marketing game. I use 60 and 80 frequently because I need to the differences are plainly obvious.

 

New lenses - I would like the see the releasing of the 350, the TS Wide. Pad out the Summicron range with a 70mm, and 45 or even better, introduce a 70mm Summilux to equal the Noctilux on the M. a 90-150 zoom would be very useful. New lenses, even one, says "we're not giving up on the system"

 

135 formats have caught up in many ways and for many "good enough" is more than enough. That industry outlook would easily influence any brand, particulaly on a system that is lagging in popularity or sales. Medium Format "look", not really included, but this isn't always obvious depending on what you are shooting, and 90% of the population don't significantly care about it, I would say it's relevancy or urgency has become somewhat diminished - or it has become not so fashionable, something that does occur. In the last 15 years I have used aptus 22, P45+, still do use P65+, and IQ180 backs on a variety of platforms that each have their own look. The 5DS R that I have used surpasses the 22MP back in some crucial areas (although may have a different look depending on what you are shooting) and comes close to the P45 and even the P65 in some circumstances. Of corse the backs are better in some ways but that gap on current tech is closing fast and a growing amount of people don't even care about those differences any more.

Edited by Paul J
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Sudden death = lens af suddenly breaks without warning during shoot. Not something you want on an important shoot.

Fudge Fix = no lasting solution. Just replace the broken part with a new one which will again likely break.

Down time = costly. Shoot gone wrong = potentially very costly.

 

my understanding is that new delivery lenses and repaired lenses don't generally fail again. This I can not say for sure. I believe the older repaired lenses were simply swapped for the same spec part and thus failed again. With Leica's announcement to repair these for free, indefinitely, I would think/hope they have a permanent fix in place. You might ask your dealer. I'd be curious to know myself.

 

If you don't use it "in a Pro way" and don't enlarge a lot then 37Mp is plenty and I don't expect you to understand or share the same needs. No, MP upgrade is not a marketing game. I use 60 and 80 frequently because I need to the differences are plainly obvious.

 

true, which is why I mentioned my personal use and also began by saying I may not be the best one to answer your questions. The Phase One 100mp is your answer... Only downside is ergonomics and lens quality. A trade off you may have to live with.

 

New lenses - I would like the see the releasing of the 350, the TS Wide. Pad out the Summicron range with a 70mm, and 45 or even better, introduce a 70mm Summilux to equal the Noctilux on the M. a 90-150 zoom would be very useful. New lenses, even one, says "we're not giving up on the system"

 

a brand new camera body released a few months ago sure signals they're not giving up to me. I could be wrong.

 

The DOF of a MF Summilux would be extremely small and quite a specialty lens. More so than the Noctilux IMHO. Not to mention quite large and heavy. The 100mm Summicron already has an extremely narrow DOF at F2. Eyes in focus, ears out. I'd also be interested in a lens like that as the owner of a Noctilux F1 and F.95. I like my F1 enormously. 

 

My understanding is the 350 is off the table. A 2x would be nice, then one could use the 180. 90-150 would be interesting. The wide T/S seems to be commonly requested. I believe they have a working prototype seen in some early press photos. I wonder if that will come to market.

 

135 formats have caught up in many ways and for many "good enough" is more than enough. That industry outlook would easily influence any brand. Medium Format "look", not really included, but this isn't always obvious depending on what you are shooting, and 90% of the population don't significantly care about it, I would say it's relevancy or urgency has become somewhat diminished - or it has become, at least, not so fashionable. In the last 15 years I have used aptus 22, P45

+, still do use P65+, and IQ180 backs. The 5DS R that I have used surpasses the 22MP back in some crucial areas (although may have a different look depending on what you are shooting) and comes close to the P45 and even the P65 in some circumstances. Of corse the backs are better in some key ways but that gap on current tech is closing fast and a growing amount of people don't even care about those differences any more.

 

I recently pulled out my Aptus 65 and was shocked how nice it performed. Horrible LCD screen, nice output.

 

Its always lonely at the top. I think 90% of the population were always happy with crap (not to say 135 is crap, far from it) Its true of every hobby. I would argue 99.9% of the population think a iPad or iPhone "takes great photos" and is "good enough." Clearly we don't think so.

 

the S is never going to be the highest MP camera. Clearly Leica decided to have something in the middle. SLR ease of use and ergonomics, Leica quality lenses, and enough rez for most. For those that need higher MP, the digital back world is where its at. Assuming Leica sticks with the S system, I think you'll see a 60mp sensor at some point.

 

I own a SL as well and this with the S adapter should be very interesting. You can sell of your M system, keep your Noctilux, buy a S system and SL body with both M and S adapters. Gives you a back up body that is very fast, you still get to enjoy your Noctilux, and its a spare body in an emergency.

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