Some Leica S flash questions (SF20, SF58, SF64)

[leicapages]

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Dear all,

 

Flashgun related questions seem to be on top of this forum section right now, so let me add some of mine as well

 

1. I have a compact Leica SF20 flashgun from the Leica R days. Will it work on the Leica S and what would be possible limitations? I would consider it as a very practical and light-weight addition while traveling, and when you need a little fill-in flash in daylight conditions. Does someone have some experience here?

 

2. With the release of the SF64 flashgun, I was wondering if there are any practical differences between it and the older SF58. Simply put: would there be particular advantages that the SF64 has over the older version, for use with the Leica S?

 

3. Does it make sense at all to get the SF58 or SF64 flashgun if one has a Metz Mecablitz 54-MZ3 or 4 with a Leica SCA 3502 module? Are there (practical) limitations with the Metz flashgun that the Leica flashguns would not have?

 

Many thanks for your views.

Pascal

Edited April 1, 2016 by leicapages

[albertknappmd]

I have the Metz Mecablitz 54-MZ4 and it is perfectly fine...

Albert       

Edited April 1, 2016 by albertknappmd

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[leicapages]

I have the Metz Mecablitz 54-MZ4 and it is perfectly fine...

Albert       

 

Albert, Metz just now informed me that it works well in A and M mode (but not TTL) and SCA module 3502 M5. For TTL, I would have to use the Leica SF58 or 64 I was told. Question: how much of an issue is the lack of TTL? I am not really big on using flashguns and certainly not to try out different positions to get the best result. I expect it to shoot and deliver the desired result

Thanks.

[albireo_double]

My two cents: had the SF58 and sold it (unwieldy when sitting on top of the prism). TTL worked reasonably well with the S2/S007 but I found the delay between triggering the shutter, the pre-flash taking place and the picture being taken just too long - longer than in the Nikon system, for instance, and enough for people to change their expression in the meantime. I now use the 76 Mz-5 with the 3502 M5. The TTL mode does not work with the S2/S007. But the A mode works really well and without the annoying pre-flash delay, of course. So, I'd keep your 54 Mz3 if I were you, and just use it in the A mode, with about -1 (or a bit more) stop compensation when shooting backlit portraits.

[hoppyman]

Albireo_double, did you try the SF58 in auto or manual mode instead? I have one but learning to use this is on my list of stuff to try some day. I don't like the positioning on the hot shoe in general though and am looking at off camera with wireless control. Very few flash units seem to have a PC socket connection that I can find which makes for a little more complication

[mwilliamsphotography]

I use flash (both on-camera and off) a LOT. Using flash with Leica cameras has always been more difficult due to fewer choices than with systems like Nikon or Canon. 

 

If I recall correctly, the SF20 will not work as a TTL flash on the S camera. It probably will work in M or A mode using the center X sync contact of the hot-shoe … (just like a radio sender works using the center X sync contact). But I'd test it first to make sure it does.

 

The problem with using the A setting on many of these flash units is the auto sensor on the face of the flash can be blocked, or tricked by certain flash modifiers. For example, the excellent S-Fill diffuser designed specifically for the little Leica speed-lights such as the SF20 blocks the Auto sensor.

 

The S camera requires HSS sync for TTL exposure. For example, you have to set the SF58 to HSS-TTL for it to work on the S cameras. It does not work if set to TTL.

 

I work with an S camera mounted to a Kirk grip with a Profoto AIR sender on the grip handle hard wired to the S camera's PC sync port (unlike the M240 and Sony A7 cameras, the S does have a standard PC connection on the left side to the camera). This frees up the hot-shoe for the SF-58 to be used as HSS/TTL fill light … which is about all it is good for when higher shutter-speeds are used. A speed-light is not very powerful, and HSS makes it less so. 

 

I use Profoto off-camera KEY lighting featuring AIR radio that allows a S camera with CS lenses to sync up to 1/1000 … and a SF58 works in concert as fill due to HSS operation. This is my primary configuration for mobile photography … (weddings and environmental portraits for example).

 

- Marc

Edited April 3, 2016 by fotografz

[hoppyman]

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Thanks Marc. That is very useful. I always follow and value your information on flash photography.

[albertknappmd]

OOPs!

I have the Metz 58, not 54! The 58 has no problems in TTL!

Sorry about that!

Albert      

[TMLH]

Please correct me if i am wrong Metz 58 have fix hot shoe and are not interchangeable. in Nikon or Canon mount

 

It does not come in Leica mount. The only Leica mount are for 4/3 olympus and Leica/Panasonic 4/3 cameras.

 

Thanks

[albireo_double]

Albireo_double, did you try the SF58 in auto or manual mode instead? I have one but learning to use this is on my list of stuff to try some day. I don't like the positioning on the hot shoe in general though and am looking at off camera with wireless control. Very few flash units seem to have a PC socket connection that I can find which makes for a little more complication

 

 

Yes, used the SF58 in the A or M modes quite often and it worked fine. The TTL mode was useful for staged portraits (worked also with a Nikon SC28/29 cable or even two or three of them connected) but I missed shots with TTL in more "active" scenarios because of the long-ish pre-flash/main flash sequence. So when taking photos that depended on the "decisive moment" - e.g. the birthday kid blowing the candles on the cake, I usually took a few test shots beforehand and then just stayed in the M mode. This is pretty much what I do with the Mz76 also, and with the Profoto lights as well. I swapped the SF58 for the Mz76 for its better ergonomics (for me) and greater ease of working with larger diffusers - e.g. the 40cm aurora speedbank. Slightly off topic - I really like how TTL flash is implemented in the Nikon system and how well that works with the Profoto AirTTL controllers; I wish we had this available with Leica, too. Shoot a test shot or two with TTL - compensate easily on camera; when you like the result, flip the controller switch on the AirTTL to manual mode to fix the exposure and you are done. When conditions change, flip the switch back to TTL. Can't be easier.

 

 

Please correct me if i am wrong Metz 58 have fix hot shoe and are not interchangeable. in Nikon or Canon mount

 

It does not come in Leica mount. The only Leica mount are for 4/3 olympus and Leica/Panasonic 4/3 cameras.

 

Thanks

 

 

The Metz 58 does not have an interchangeable hot shoe. You need the Leica SF58, which is a dedicated Leica version of that same Metz 58 flash - the same flash but much more expensive, because "Leica".

Edited April 4, 2016 by albireo_double

[leicapages]

Reverting back to one of my original questions: has someone tried the SF20 on the S? Does that work in TTL for fill-in? It would be handy as a travel companion giving its small size and weight.

[hoppyman]

Pascal see Marc's comments in #6

[skimmel]

I just got a message from B&H that the SF 64 is discontinued.

 

I would like to get a flash for my S007 that does high speed sync and TTL metering.  Doesn't need to be too powerful.  Any suggestions for one that will work with the S007? SF 58 is not available anymore as far as I can tell. Thanks.

[leicapages]

Pascal see Marc's comments in #6

Hi Geoff, yes, I read those comments but I do not think Marc has actually used the SF20 at it seems he was referring to other sources. I am still looking for somebody who has successfully used the SF20 on the S

[leicapages]

I just got a message from B&H that the SF 64 is discontinued.

 

Hard to believe as it was only recently introduced !

[skimmel]

Hard to believe as it was only recently introduced !

 

I agree. So, I checked with my Leica rep: it's still under beta testing and not discontinued.

[sog1927]

I have to say that the TTL flash situation has been my biggest single disappointment with the S system. I've done a lot of high-magnification macro work with Luminars and Photars on Hasselblad V equipment. I've been able to adapt almost all of it quite easily to the S (006) using my Hasselblad bellows, extension tubes, and adapters. What I haven't been able to do is adapt the SCA macro flashes I was using (or any of my other Metz gear). It's very hard to get a sharp image at 8x-15x without using a short-duration flash - and external flash meters are very hard to use under these circumstances (particularly since the diaphragms of these special-purpose lenses are often not calibrated in f-stops).

 

At the time I bought the body, Leica was still touting SCA 3000 compatibility. I notice they no longer seem to be doing so.

 

I'll probably hang onto it - it's a very nice, compact "travel camera" alternative to the V-system bodies. It just doesn't seem to be versatile enough to invest further in the system, except perhaps for a wide-angle lens.

[skimmel]

Wondering if anyone has tried the SF40 on an S007?

[earlstone]

Has anyone tried the SF 64 on the 007? To use the slave function with 1st and 2nd curtain functions is that where the CS lenses would come into play?

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[albireo_double]

I bought the SF64 only last week and have the S007. So far I like the combination - exposures are consistent and my impression is that the pre-flash sequence in TTL is faster than it was with the SF-58. And I like the LCD touch display, too.

I am not sure I understand your question, though. When you use the CS lenses (with the shutter set on CS), the flash stays in the TTL mode until the max sync speed of the leaf shutter (1/1000s); then it switches to TTL-HSS. When you use non-CS lenses, the flash switches from TTL to TTL-HSS at any shutter speeds faster than the max sync speed of the focal plane shutter (1/125s). The advantage of CS lenses here is the same as with any other flashes - speedlites or strobes - they allow faster sync speeds to control ambient light more efficiently (through faster shutter speeds) or use your lenses at wider aperture settings (to achieve shallower depth of field) without having to use ND filters. In summary:

(i) with non-CS lenses - your fastest sync speed is 125/s, which may be too slow, depending on how much ambient light there is and/or how wide an aperture you want to use - you can use HSS (however that reduces the power of the flash significantly) or an ND filter, to address this.

(ii) with CS lenses - you can use the maximum power of your flash until 1/1000s, to "overpower" the ambient light.

A typical scenario may be a sunny day, where your ambient exposure (at ISO 100) would be say 1/500s @ F8.0. With a CS lens, you can happily sync the flash at that shutter speed, or even 1/1000s @F5.6. With a non-CS lens, you would have to sync at 1/125s which would require you to use F16, or a 3-stop ND filter to get you back to F5.6. ND filters can be a PITA, not just screwing and unscrewing them but they also impair your (and the AF-system's) ability to focus properly. HSS can be helpful, but only at much shorter distances than when the flash can operate on full power (and bear in mind that any modifiers or bouncing your flash will reduce power even further).

As for the slave function - you can operate the flash in slave function with both S and CS lenses. What is your thought regarding 1st and 2nd curtain sync here? A typical use for 2nd shutter sync would be at slower shutter speeds (e.g. 1/30s) where some moving ambient light sources (e.g. car lights, torches held by moving dancers etc.) register on the sensor first and the exposure is then finished (movement frozen) with the flash. The light streaks from the ambient light sources are shown "behind" the object, e.g. the light streaks follow a moving car, whereas they would show "in front", if you used 1st curtain sync. In other words, you would usually not use 2nd curtain sync at the (high) shutter speeds that require CS lenses for flash syncing, because, if you were, you would be giving the ambient light sources too little time to create the "streaks" that are meant to symbolise movement in your photo. Maybe I am missing something here?

Edited October 24, 2016 by albireo_double