just a curious question regarding screwmounts

[nikonosguy]

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I've seen some talk of the hahne list --- i have wondered if mine was delivered to anyone of note and just wondering to see if it was just some adventurer,reporter, or ordinary joe who received my leica iid in 1938 -- is there any way to know for sure?

 

just curious, nothing more

[new2leica]

You won't find that type of information in the Hahne list. It's very unlikely that reliable ownership records exist.  

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[jimbo035]

 But if the name and address of a previous owner stays with a camera (as happened to my llla, on a business card inside a luggage tag still attached to its ever-ready case); the whole of its travels from Berlin to London, via Havana and Mississippi along the way,  with three generations of the same family since 1938 may be revealed......Fortunately (as I discovered) it was not too difficult, as the family name itself proved to be useful link.

[spydrxx]

Likewise, I found the name & address of a previous owner of a Leicaflex penned inside its leather case, turned out he was a friend of Ansel Adams who, according to his family, had recommended the camera to him.

[luigi bertolotti]

The Leitz factory delivery records, on which Hahne list is based, usually do detail the name of the dealer or importer (for example, the items delivered to Italy did report "Cattaneo, Genova" : I don't think they report the end user names, aparte special occasions.

[willeica]

I believe that Luigi is correct. I don't have the Hahne list but I have seen some Leica factory records. Most of the records are for delivery details involving dealers. I was at a talk by Lars Netopil recently where he had details of an early demonstration Luxus model that made several visits to Wetzlar and back out to dealers in far flung parts of the world between 1930 and 1932. I have also seen factory details where some personal customers appear to have had direct dealings with Leica in Wetzlar, but these seem to be in the minority.

 

I too have found details of a previous owner scratched inside the bottom plate ; in one case a well known local photographer living near to New York USA. I also have a box for FILCA cassettes which records details of photographs taken in the United Kingdom and Germany in 1935 but, unfortunately, not the name of the photographer.

 

In most cases we can only dream about the past life of our old Leicas but sometimes luck can play a part and we can get some inkling about provenance.

 

William

[pgk]

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In most cases we can only dream about the past life of our old Leicas but sometimes luck can play a part and we can get some inkling about provenance.

 

Out of curiosity how important is 'provenance' - I have two M4s, one belonged to a somewhat known photographer, the other almost certainly was part of asset used on cruise ships. Is this of interest to collectors or simply of interest?

[wattsy]

I have two M4s, one belonged to a somewhat known photographer, the other almost certainly was part of asset used on cruise ships. Is this of interest to collectors or simply of interest?

 

 

A "somewhat known photographer" and "part of an asset used on cruise ships" isn't really much to go on. The latter is neither of interest to collectors or simply of interest but the former could be both, obviously depending entirely upon who the photographer is or was. (Actually, in truth, the cruise ship M4 does interest a part time Leica nerd like me, even if only in the sense that it is interesting to see how such a camera, which I assume is very heavily used, has fared.)

[pgk]

 (Actually, in truth, the cruise ship M4 does interest a part time Leica nerd like me, even if only in the sense that it is interesting to see how such a camera, which I assume is very heavily used, has fared.)

 

When it finally arrives back I'll post an image - it needed a new bodyshell(!) and will no longer be 'original', although the mechanics were still ok, despite what could be described as extremely heavy use. I have no idea how many exposures these cameras have taken but I'd guess its in the hundreds of thousands - they worked hard and were apparently bought for their reliability.

[luigi bertolotti]

Out of curiosity how important is 'provenance' - I have two M4s, one belonged to a somewhat known photographer, the other almost certainly was part of asset used on cruise ships. Is this of interest to collectors or simply of interest?

 

I remember well to have seen for sale (auction) Leica Ms which belonged to somewhat known photogs (to say, not really famous ones like HCB, or DDD, or Eisendstadt or similar...) : the auctioner found the way to add value putting together a "kit" related to the photographer himself (a book, a number of prints, some historical magazine with reportages etc...) and of course providing real evidence of the relation with THAT camera and THAT photographer... but at the end, a collector likes more a "collector grade" item than a heavily used one even belonged to a respectable professional...

[willeica]

Out of curiosity how important is 'provenance' - I have two M4s, one belonged to a somewhat known photographer, the other almost certainly was part of asset used on cruise ships. Is this of interest to collectors or simply of interest?

 

 Provenance is as valuable as you want to make it. I might have the same kit as Alfred Eisenstaedt, but his kit might sell at auction for 200 times what I paid for mine. It doesn't mean that his camera is better than mine; they are exactly the same. It just means that some people are prepared to pay a lot of money for his camera because of his fame as a photographer.

 

I believe that the OP's question related to a broader topic than value. It related to what kind of journey through life his camera might have had and who accompanied that journey. For some things, such as cars and houses, registration of ownership is a statutory requirement. In very recent years camera and other electronic goods manufacturers have asked owners to register their ownership on line. I often wonder how many owners actually do this.  For the future I believe that this type of on-line registration will continue to be subject to data protection legislation.

 

Going back to the pre-electronic era, I still believe that a bit of luck is involved to determine who owned and used a camera 60, 70 or 80 years ago.

 

William

[pgk]

I believe that the OP's question related to a broader topic than value. It related to what kind of journey through life his camera might have had and who accompanied that journey.

 

Actually I prefer older equipment which has been used myself and I don't actually want to own older, pristine cameras - to me they have never fulfilled their design purpose which I feel to be a pity. But each to his/her own - I'm quite happy that some people do like perfect examples, or there would be none left!

[willeica]

Actually I prefer older equipment which has been used myself and I don't actually want to own older, pristine cameras - to me they have never fulfilled their design purpose which I feel to be a pity. But each to his/her own - I'm quite happy that some people do like perfect examples, or there would be none left!

 

I'm not sure how this relates to my point. The perfect or non perfect nature of a camera example has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of provenance. As for myself, none of my collection of about 40 Leica cameras dating from 1926 onwards are perfect. That is not what I am looking for as a collector.

 

William

Edited May 17, 2016 by willeica

[pgk]

I'm not sure how this relates to my point.

 

Owning and using cameras are different things. Provenance of an 'unused' camera is different from a used one - potentially equally interesting but quite different from my perspective.

[willeica]

Provenance in my book relates entirely to who used a particular camera. Nothing else. 

 

William

[pgk]

Provenance in my book relates entirely to who used a particular camera. Nothing else. 

 

William

 

The key word would be 'used'. I remember seeing a custom motorcycle in a high end auctioneers. It had been ordered by and belonged to a very (apparently ) famous footballer and was to be auctioned for charity. My impression looking over it was that it was effectively unused (it was very clean indeed - too clean). The 'belonging' bit had very little relevance, in all honesty. It had 'provenance' but that 'provenance' was of the 'manufactured' variety IMO. The same can easily apply to cameras. Next time I'm over in Dublin I'll let you know and you can have a look at my 'used' cameras!

Edited May 18, 2016 by pgk

[willeica]

I'd be happy to meet up if you are over here. Vintage Leica collectors and, indeed, users are few and far between on this side of the pond!

 

William

[gyoung]

I have a Leica III which I inherited when my wife's uncle died. It was bought in 1938 by A close friend of his, I have every roll of film taken with the camera between then and the outbreak of WW2 (about 30 rolls from memory). The friend was killed very early on in the war and his mother gave the camera to my wife's uncle, who kept it in a drawer apart from a couple of attempts to use it with early Kodacolor (unsuccessful as the 3.5 Elmar had started to separate).

I acquired it 20+ years ago, had it overhauled etc and still use it occasionally. It has emotional and sentimental value far in excess of money.

 

Gerry

[philipus]

I have understood (but I cannot now for the life of me remember where I heard it) that sometimes the name of M owners were inscribed by repair people on the inside of the metal plate that is at the bottom of the camera (visible when the bottom plate is removed). Not sure if this is possible on the Barnacks though.

Edited June 7, 2016 by philipus

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[wizard]

I inherited my late father's IIIf plus several lenses, an outfit that was inter alia used to take almost all photographs of me as a kid. There is a lot of emotional value involved, as there was a time when I was younger where we shared the lenses on trips. I used them with an adapter (LTM to M-mount) on my M3 (which I was able to aquire back then from a collector for roughly € 150, including a Summicron 2/35 lens with goggles!), and he used the lenses on his IIIf (which he actually prefered over my M3, as it was smaller and lighter).

 

Of course I had the IIIf serviced, and it is in full working order today, as are the lenses. I still use the camera from time to time, and the lenses even more. One of them is the rare 3-element Elmar 4/90 lens in screw mount (I only found out about this long after my father had passed away, although I had been using the lens for many, many years before, but did not know about the many varieties of the Elmar 90 lens then).

 

Regards,

 

Andy