Best quality/price for first time Leica owner?

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Some of the most extensive field testing of Leica M-mount lenses has been done by Lloyd Chambers and his evaluations are available by subscription at http://diglloyd.com/index-leica.html . Generally the best price to performance ratio is in the slower Super-Elmar, Elmar, Elmarit, Summarit and Summicron lines. The Summiluxes offer wider apertures but generally inferior performance. Zeiss also offers some competitively priced M-mount lenses, which are often half the price of the Leica counterparts and have different optical designs. I particularly like the Zeiss 35mm/1.4 Distagon ZM, Zeiss 35mm/2.8 C-Biogon ZM, the Leica 28mm/2.8 Elmarit ASPH, the 24mm/3.8 Elmar ASPH and the 75mm/2 Apo-Summicron ASPH for use on my Leica M9P and Leica M-P Typ 240 cameras. The best of these is the Zeiss 35mm/1.4, but it's a large lens. Sometimes I prefer the extreme compactness of the Zeiss 35mm/2.8 which is very small, yet quite good. The Leica 28mm/2.8 ASPH is also a great compact design.

My first Leica brand lens was a 35mm/2 Summicron ASPH, which was rather disappointing in that it never seemed to be in focus where I wanted it to be. Some people love this lens, but I never did. Lloyd Chambers recently tested it versus other M mont 35mm designs, and he concluded the design suffers from a large amount of focus shift when stopping down. So it's best focused in live view or EVF. When I had it I was still shooting film, and being unaware the lens had focus shift, I never got it to work well for me. Some people do love this design, and I suspect they tend to be those who shoot it wide open, or modestly stopped down, rather than the f/5.6-f/11 I typically use. The Zeiss 35mm/1.4 and f/2.8 lenses both have very low focus shift.

[Kupo43]

Well, after a long week of looking for trusted photographers to trade with, I've come away with my first Leica! It's being shipped from Califorina so I should have it next week sometime. I've decided on a used Summicron 50/2 with lens hood built in. I believe it is the latest version. Unless something drastic happens in lens design, I feel confident that this glass will last me a lifetime. It's very exciting to know that I've just bought something with that much integrity. I decided that spending the extra on a Summicron would be a better investment at this point than buying Zeiss and wondering what if in the future.

 

Officially pumped! I'll post some pics to the I Love My M6 thread next week when she arrives. Until then, I'm going to start considering whether I should go with a 35 or 28 for my wide lens when I eventually have the disposable income for a other lens.

 

Thanks again guys!

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[spydrxx]

The Summicron you mentioned is an excellent choice. When you get it let us know how you like it. I used the latest version 50 Summicron for a couple of years and was very satisfied with it in all respects. Recently I've taken to a 1950s 50/3.5 Elmar and quite fallen in love with it...not as sharp as the current Summicron, but beautiful rendition and my Leica is once again pocketable, because it collapses. FWIW, there is also a really spectacular 50/2.8 Elmar-M which was produced from '94-07, which was originally only sold with the M6J body.

[Jennifer]

I know the received wisdom imparted to a new Leica shooter is to get a 35 or 50mm lens as a starter FL. I, myself, bought a 35mm with my new M240. However, with hindsight I'd probably have bought a 28mm instead. IMO the best wide angle FL and great when teamed with a 50. The Elmarit 28 is a cracking lens especially given its relatively low price and diminutive size. Indeed, I could manage quite well with just that and my APO 50 as, fortunately, my need for speed is a well controlled passion easily resisted.

[asiafish]

Hey guys,

 

Looking to getting into the Leica family and I'm still new to the lens system. Leica orders the quality of their lenses by:

 

Summarit

Summicron

Summicron M

Summilux

Noctilux

 

Is that correct? I was wondering which lens is the best "bang for your buck" lens in the line up (if there is such a thing).

From what I've researched, the Summicron seems to be the sweet spot between cost and performance. I am still torn on whether I should go 50 or 35, but I do know that I want a lens that will produce sharp results from wide open all the way to mid aperture. Also, is there a huge difference in the Summicrom and Summicrom M series? Is that even a real thing?

 

Am I making any sense? I've also heard that the new Zeiss glass is nice as well. I know this has already been discussed in great detail between you guys, but I'm just starting and any  help would be much appreciated. I'm coming from Canon so wish me luck!

 

 

 

 

There is no quality difference whatsoever, but there is a character difference, a speed difference, a size and weight difference and of course a price difference.

 

Summarit lenses are simply outstanding and give up nothing in image quality to their more expensive, faster and heavier sisters.  The 35mm and 50mm Summarits also give up a small amount of minimum focusing distance as they focus to 0.8 meters instead of 0.7 meters like the others do.

 

Summicrons have traditionally been the best compromise of speed, size and price in the Leica lineup, though with digital and the higher ISOs possible Summarits may likely have that distinction now.  Summicrons are never a bad choice, however, and they will likely hold their value better than the Summarits should you wish to resell.  The 50mm f/2 Summicron (non-APO) is the oldest lens in the current Leica catalog, and it is an outstanding lens in every way.  Summicrons cost about $1000 more than Summarits (at least at 35mm and 50mm), are 1/2 stop faster, and just a little bit heavier.  I used a 35mm Summarit and 50mm Summicron as my main lenses for the last three years, though I recently upgrade to a 50mm Summilux.  The 35mm Summicron ASPH is one of the oldest of the modern Leica lenses, is very compact and was recently revised with a better hood design and more aperture blades.  This is probably the best "starter" lens for a new Leica shooter.

 

Summilux lenses are typically around $2000 more and a full stop faster than Summicrons, and about 50% heavier as well.   The 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE is a magnificent lens, but for the same price you could buy the 35mm AND 50mm Summarits.  The 50mm Summilux ASPH is probably the most versatile of Leica's 50mm lenses, with beautiful rendering of both in and out of focus elements, great image quality at all apertures and distances and almost no flare.  It is also still reasonably small and light if you get the black version.  It is as close to a perfect 50mm lens as anyone has ever made except possibly the Zeiss Otus 55mm SLR lens, but that thing weighs more than my Cadillac.  The only reason for choosing a Summilux (or anything really) over a Summarit is if you need f/1.4, either for shallow depth of field or because you shoot film and/or an M9 or in VERY low light.  I traded up from the 50mm Summicron exclusively for the extra speed as my M-E (M9) falls apart past ISO 1600, I shoot a lot of film and I favor an available darkness style of photography.

 

The Noctilux comes only in 50mm, and its only reason for being is its f/0.95 or f/1 aperture and the character that such an aperture brings.  These lenses have unique looks even when stopped down a bit, but are massive, weigh a ton (1/2 an Otus maybe) and cost a fortune.  They also block much of the 50mm frame line.  I've borrowed Noctilux lenses a few times for a specific image I had in my mind, but as an everyday lens there is really no need to go faster than the Summilux, or the Summarit for that matter if you have an M240, M Monochrom or aren't a vampire.

 

I still have the 35mm f/2.5 Summarit as my one and only 35mm Leica lens.  It is that good.  Honestly if I had to choose one lens and limit myself to it for a year, it would probably be the 35mm Summarit.  The high-ISO of the M Monochrom is more than enough to compensate for the f/2.5 maximum aperture, but no amount of money or speed can match the extremely light weight, compact dimensions and ease of use of the 35mm Summarit.  It is my favorite Leica lens of any focal length, and while I am saving for the 35mm f/1.4 Summilux ASPH FLE, I will never let go of my 35mm f/2.5 Summarit.  I even think the little Summarit has a more pleasing way of drawing a scene than the faster and more expensive 35s, almost a cinematic quality.  No it isn't "better", but I personally like its look very much.

[sdk]

The Summarit 35mm/2.5 I used for a while was indeed very good, comparable in performance to the Zeiss C-Biogon, though slightly bigger, incrementally faster and with a bit more barrel distortion. It probably is one of the best Leica 35mm designs, crisp, high contrast, modern, yet with very smooth out of focus characteristics. There is a new 35mm/2.4 version of the lens that is almost identical but slightly faster wide open due to a change in the iris, and which takes a different lens hood.

FYI, the new 28mm/2 and 28mm/2.8 ASPH lenses apparently have been re-optimized for digital sensors for better contrast and corner resolution, though the old ones really are still pretty good on digital for film-optimized wideangles.

[Kupo43]

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Well it looks like maybe I spoke to soon regarding waiting for a wider lens. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Minolta M-Rokkor 28 2.8? 

 

I was in a local camera shop that I frequent and started telling the owner (who I've known for quite some time) that I was moving over to Leica for film and he became very excited. I told him that I had already purchased a 50/2 Summicron M and he asked if I had considered something wider. I told him maybe down the road but he insisted that having something nice and wide was a crucial part of the Leica experience. He didn't have any lenses to sell me officially through the shop but he went in the back and pulled out his personal Leica kit. He had a 28 2.8 Elmarit for his personal wide but then also pulled out his Minolta M 28. He told me he could never make himself sell it because it was such a good lens but felt bad because he always used his Elmarit instead. It was in absolutely gorgeous shape and the glass looked impeccable. Apparently this lens is prone to white spots forming around the front of the glass but he had the lens professionally cleaned about two years ago and hasn't touched it since. He told me that his particular lens never suffered from the white spot issue but had it cleaned just in case.

He told me I could have the lens and a 28 Voightlander viewfinder, like this one, for $575 out the door. I told him I would have to sleep on it, but from what I've read this is a pretty great little lens and could be an affordable and awesome solution for my wide angle shots. 

Thoughts?

[Jeff S]

There's something to be said, especially for a first time user, to stick with one lens for a while and get to know it.  You'll use your feet more and, with your preview lever, you'll better know what if anything you're missing.  Plus you'll spend less time changing lenses and more time bonding with your M and RF shooting.  New and used lenses are plentiful....and when you buy, you'll do it based on need, not GAS.

 

Jeff

[hepcat]

Well it looks like maybe I spoke to soon regarding waiting for a wider lens. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Minolta M-Rokkor 28 2.8? 

 

I was in a local camera shop that I frequent and started telling the owner (who I've known for quite some time) that I was moving over to Leica for film and he became very excited. I told him that I had already purchased a 50/2 Summicron M and he asked if I had considered something wider. I told him maybe down the road but he insisted that having something nice and wide was a crucial part of the Leica experience. He didn't have any lenses to sell me officially through the shop but he went in the back and pulled out his personal Leica kit. He had a 28 2.8 Elmarit for his personal wide but then also pulled out his Minolta M 28. He told me he could never make himself sell it because it was such a good lens but felt bad because he always used his Elmarit instead. It was in absolutely gorgeous shape and the glass looked impeccable. Apparently this lens is prone to white spots forming around the front of the glass but he had the lens professionally cleaned about two years ago and hasn't touched it since. He told me that his particular lens never suffered from the white spot issue but had it cleaned just in case.

 

He told me I could have the lens and a 28 Voightlander viewfinder, like this one, for $575 out the door. I told him I would have to sleep on it, but from what I've read this is a pretty great little lens and could be an affordable and awesome solution for my wide angle shots. 

 

Thoughts?

It sounds like your friend is wise.  There are lenses out there from a number of manufacturers that are very competent, and cost significantly less than native Leica M-mount lenses.  If your M6 has the .72 viewfinder, you already have the 28mm framelines in your VF, so you don't really need the Voigtlander viewfinder. 

 

I've read all your posts.  You seem to be smitten with mechanical cameras, which is fine, but you don't talk at all about what you shoot, how you shoot, or whether or not you've ever shot using a rangefinder camera.    The M6/Summicron set up is competent, but there are some significant differences in competence shooting with a rangefinder and shooting with an SLR. There are a lot of folks who just can't get on with a rangefinder; others (like me) find them intuitively easier and faster to use than an SLR... but I've shot them for forty years, and using a Leica rangefinder specifically is like using my own hands.  For someone who hasn't used one before, they can be...  obstinate.    I don't want your obvious enthusiasm to wane because the camera doesn't handle or perform anything like an SLR... and you can't use it the same way you use an SLR.  

 

I hope you've schooled yourself in the way of shooting a rangefinder camera...  and if you haven't, please do before you start out.  You won't regret the time spent.  It may make the difference between the camera becoming an extension of you, or the camera being in the way of what you want to do. 

 

Roger

Edited January 29, 2016 by hepcat

[sdk]

One thing about the Minolta 28mm/2.8 is that it doesn't bring up the correct finder framelines on Leica M cameras. It was designed for the Minolta CLE, which has an M mount with a different lens recognition mechanism than Leica built cameras do. That's why you might want an external VF to use it on a Leica body, though on the M6 you could bring up the proper 28+90mm framelines by using the manual frame selector lever below the finder on the front of the camera. You could even gaffer-tape the lever into the place if you were planning only using the Minolta 28mm for a day. Many digital Leica M bodies omit the frameline lever which makes the Minolta CLE 28mm lens less alluring than it used to be.

A used Zeiss 28mm/2.8 Biogon ZM would also be something to keep an eye out for. It's perhaps got more field curvature than the smaller Leica 28mm/2.8 Elmarit ASPH. But it's a very good lens the Zeiss 28mm, high contrast, wonderfully sharp when stopped down to f/5.6 to f/11, though most lenses are, and an almost medium format look to its bokeh, which is quite smooth.

[Kupo43]

@hepcat
@Jeff S

You guys both make excellent points.

Jeff I agree with you on your sentiment about using one lens. That was my initial thought process as well. It isn't that I feel I need it right now, but I'm not sure that I'll be able to get a quality lens at that price point when I want one down the road. I'm sure there will Minolta 28's available, but definitely not in that condition and not from someone who I trust. The conflict is passing up on this now and not having the same opportunity when I am ready. Also, the M6TTL that I purchased has the .85 viewfinder. It was not my first choice, but I looked through one before committing to the trade and felt that I will be able to get by. If it becomes a serious issue then I can always have the viewfinder replaced with a .58 or .72. I mention that because that would be the reason I needed the Voightlander 28mm viewfinder as a part of the deal.

Roger I also agree with you. Smitten is the perfect word to describe my current state with Leica's. Although I've never owned one before, I am looking forward to the learning curve of rangefinders. It will definitely take some time to be comfortable shooting but I fully believe that the time invested in this system will benefit my shooting. As for the type of shooting I enjoy, I like reality/documentary photography. I want to capture great moments in my life as they unfold in front of me. I want great IQ and I don't want my camera to get in the way. Honestly, the appeal of a fully mechanical camera is very enticing, but what really drew me to Leica was the attitude towards shooting that the company has embraced. I may not be shooting street photography all the time, but that style is what I want to bring to my everyday life. Everyone gets into photography for different reasons. I just want to look back on my photos when I'm older and relive everything about the moment I was there. And when others see them, I want them to see what I saw and feel how I felt when I took it. That's why I'm smitten with Leica.

Again, I appreciate all of the input. If anyone still has any advice on whether I should go ahead and grab that Minolta, please speak up. I'd love to hear all opinions!

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Kupo43

[jaques]

the first Leica lens I got was a 1969 50mm summicron. I think that was an excellent start- still love that lens- there is a reason 50mm is the 'gold' standard focal length. I got mine for around $500 USD about 7 years ago- turns out I got a really rare safari prototype lens- with a cool focusing lever:

 

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Edited January 30, 2016 by jaques

[Herr Barnack]

Well it looks like maybe I spoke to soon regarding waiting for a wider lens. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Minolta M-Rokkor 28 2.8?

...He told me I could have the lens and a 28 Voightlander viewfinder, like this one, for $575 out the door. I told him I would have to sleep on it, but from what I've read this is a pretty great little lens and could be an affordable and awesome solution for my wide angle shots. 

 

Thoughts?

For $575, I would probably take him up on his offer. 

 

While we all love Leica lenses, there is no rule that says we can't consider other makes of lenses.  Here is a fast wide angle lens that is well worth having on hand:  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/827619-REG/Voigtlander_BA237B_Nokton_Aspherical_35mm_f_1_2.html 

 

I owned the original version of this lens but regrettably sold it off in a fit of temporary insanity.  I am still of the mind to replace it with the improved version II that is still in production.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Carlos Danger

[Kupo43]

For $575, I would probably take him up on his offer. 

 

While we all love Leica lenses, there is no rule that says we can't consider other makes of lenses.  Here is a fast wide angle lens that is well worth having on hand:  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/827619-REG/Voigtlander_BA237B_Nokton_Aspherical_35mm_f_1_2.html 

 

I owned the original version of this lens but regrettably sold it off in a fit of temporary insanity.  I am still of the mind to replace it with the improved version II that is still in production.

 

I ended up getting the lens/viewfinder combo. He said when it was serviced that the elements that cause the white spots were removed. That made me feel much better about the purchase of the lens. The 50/28 combo should hold me over for quite some time. Now all thats left is to wait for the camera to arrive, shoot about 30-40 rolls of film, and convince myself I need a proper portrait lens.

 

Thanks to all who contributed. The camera should arrive Thursday next week. That feels like a lifetime!

Edited January 30, 2016 by Kupo43

[Jeff S]

I ended up getting the lens/viewfinder combo. He said when it was serviced that the elements that cause the white spots were removed. That made me feel much better about the purchase of the lens. The 50/28 combo should hold me over for quite some time. Now all thats left is to wait for the camera to arrive, shoot about 30-40 rolls of film, and convince myself I need a proper portrait lens.

 

Thanks to all who contributed. The camera should arrive Thursday next week. That feels like a lifetime!

 

Oh my....already thinking about another lens....methinks your GAS has set in early.  'Proper' portraits can be taken with many different lenses and focal lengths, including the two you have yet to use.

 

Happy shooting.

 

Jeff

[spydrxx]

When I bought my first Leica, 47 years ago, I had the benefit of an associate who had been a Leica salesman and had an enviable collection of lenses and accessories upon whom I could lean for advice and borrowing. I ended up with a new 35/2.8 Summaron which I used exclusively for 3 years, when I picked up a used 135/4 Tele-Elmar which I bought for an assignment alongside a group of Nat'l Geographic photographers. For the next 10 years these were my only lenses and I didn't concern myself with others.  Over time I acquired lots of others, but in the end, many didn't get as much use as I anticipated and I sold them. So, I'm of the opinion that your two lenses should keep you well engaged for a couple of years while you settle into the Leica nuances, and as your style grows, you can switch or augment much more intelligently than jumping in both feet first at the beginning. Now go and enjoy your new tools.

Edited January 31, 2016 by spydrxx

[Ronazle]

As above, there is no order of rank in terms of quality. The names refer to the fastest aperture (generally).

 

Whilst Leica lenses are mostly excellent they don't defy the laws of physics and overall performance of any lens will improve when stopped down a few f stops.

 

I think you should consider a 35 or 50 Summarit or Summicron for your first lens.

 

Agree completely. Regards, Ron

[peterjcb]

Hey guys,

 

Looking to getting into the Leica family and I'm still new to the lens system. Leica orders the quality of their lenses by:

 

Summarit

Summicron

Summicron M

Summilux

Noctilux

 

Is that correct? I was wondering which lens is the best "bang for your buck" lens in the line up (if there is such a thing).

From what I've researched, the Summicron seems to be the sweet spot between cost and performance. I am still torn on whether I should go 50 or 35, but I do know that I want a lens that will produce sharp results from wide open all the way to mid aperture. Also, is there a huge difference in the Summicrom and Summicrom M series? Is that even a real thing?

 

Am I making any sense? I've also heard that the new Zeiss glass is nice as well. I know this has already been discussed in great detail between you guys, but I'm just starting and any  help would be much appreciated. I'm coming from Canon so wish me luck!

 

 

 

 

My advice is to pick up a used 50mm summilux pre-asph. It's a fantastic lens and priced well below the asph version ( I have two versions....the 50mm Summilux pre-asph VII and a 50mm Summilux Black Chrome Edition asph version ).

 

Buy it used from a reputable dealer like Adorama or BHPhoto or even KEH. You will most likely not lose much money if you decide to sell but I'm betting that you will love it...

 

As an alternative I'd highly also recommend the 50mm Summicron...an excellent choice but you'll be temped by the bokeh of the Summilux...

Edited February 3, 2016 by peterjcb

[mmx_2]

In my opinion, the best bang for the buck in the Leica world is the Summicron 40.

You can find it cheap and it is a great lens. 

Or even better is the Minolta version (produced be Leitz) of this Lens (Rokkor 40mm). It has a better hood and uses standard 40.5mm filter thread. It's an awesome lens. Perfomance wise they are totally identical.

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[Martin B]

I would stick to pre-ASPH versions, too. Price tag is one reason, the other is that the ASPH versions are less compatible with third party digital mirrorless FF cameras. I started with a 50/2 Summicron-M (version V) which I used a couple of years before even getting my first Leica M. I recently added a 35/2 Summicron (version IV). I bought all of those lenses used in very good quality for a decent price. 

 

I have some mixed feelings about the 40/2 versions from Leica or Minolta. Very small lens indeed, but you need to like the sort of doughnut shaped bokeh of this lens - a friend of mine loves it, I personally dislike it. Also consider that Leica M cameras have no 40 mm frames - likely something which you could get by in the rangefinder but not the best in the beginning. 

 

I found used Leica M lens prices especially at KEH in recent years heavily overpriced for the quality offered, B&H/Adorama are borderline price-wise for used Leica gear. Just my 2 Cents.