New summicron asph 35mm. How and why did they improve the current one?

[Martin B]

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I very much doubt Leica is concerned with improving lens performance for use with other model cameras, just like I doubt Sony is hard at work developing sensors to deal with Leica wide angle lenses.

 

Sony certainly is focusing now on getting the best performance with their own FE lenses. The latest A7R II model shows this trend clearly. I agree that performance of third party lenses like Leica is no longer a priority for Sony. Leica made the decision to build the first ASPH M lenses before Sony even had the A7 mirrorless series. Even newer ASPH lenses might rely on similar blueprints as the meanwhile older ASPH lenses - likely not optimized to be used on a non-Leica based camera. Even I still believe that Leica knows that M lenses are used on third party mirrorless cameras bodies.

 

It is up to the customer - I am avoiding simply the latest ASPH Leica M lenses and bought their 35 and 50 mm predecessor versions instead. I can use them both on my Leica M6 and on my Sony A7R. And looking at the constantly rising used sales price for the 35/2 pre-ASPH 7-element M lens (and the dropping price of the existing 35/2 ASPH version instead) clearly shows a trend here IMO.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Martin B

[Rick]

Sony certainly is focusing now on getting the best performance with their own FE lenses. The latest A7R II model shows this trend clearly. I agree that performance of third party lenses like Leica is no longer a priority for Sony. Leica made the decision to build the first ASPH M lenses before Sony even had the A7 mirrorless series. Even newer ASPH lenses might rely on similar blueprints as the meanwhile older ASPH lenses - likely not optimized to be used on a non-Leica based camera. Even I still believe that Leica knows that M lenses are used on third party mirrorless cameras bodies.

 

It is up to the customer - I am avoiding simply the latest ASPH Leica M lenses and bought their 35 and 50 mm predecessor versions instead. I can use them both on my Leica M6 and on my Sony A7R. And looking at the constantly rising used sales price for the 35/2 pre-ASPH 7-element M lens (and the dropping price of the existing 35/2 ASPH version instead) clearly shows a trend here IMO.

 

Martin, the trend you mention arises only from the fact that the Summicron 35mm ver. IV has taken on the crown of "Bokeh King."  It is a much sought after lens because of this fact.  Leica collectors and shooters through the years have incorrectly interpreted the review that the lens shot wide open has some sort of superior bokeh.

 

 The reality is that the lens has moderate contrast which falls off in the corners, exhibits quite a bit of vignetting, is soft in the corners and exhibits coma and astigmatism.  

 

But, collectors have driven up the price due to an incorrect rumor that the lens shot wide open is the "King of Bokeh.  Unfortunately, although the person has long ago explained his review criteria, the legend lives on.

 

Rick

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[Jeff S]

Didn't stop him, though, from proclaiming a possible new king...  http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/10/a-new-king-of-bokeh.html

 

Jeff

[otto.f]

Martin, the trend you mention arises only from the fact that the Summicron 35mm ver. IV has taken on the crown of "Bokeh King."  It is a much sought after lens because of this fact.  Leica collectors and shooters through the years have incorrectly interpreted the review that the lens shot wide open has some sort of superior bokeh.

 

 The reality is that the lens has moderate contrast which falls off in the corners, exhibits quite a bit of vignetting, is soft in the corners and exhibits coma and astigmatism.  

 

But, collectors have driven up the price due to an incorrect rumor that the lens shot wide open is the "King of Bokeh.  Unfortunately, although the person has long ago explained his review criteria, the legend lives on.

 

Rick

 

No I don't think you can fool the market/customer by just names and their suggestions. The lens just draws beautifully, it's a Mandler lens, like summilux 75, the two go well together btw on an MM. In the '70's-'90's many Leica lenses had this fall-off towards the corners, it's their charm. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by otto.f

[lct]

[...] The reality is that the lens has moderate contrast which falls off in the corners, exhibits quite a bit of vignetting, is soft in the corners and exhibits coma and astigmatism. [...]

 

Well this lens made me happy for 20+ years i must say. I now prefer the 35/2 asph but i still miss the small size and weight of the v4 which has less CA and distortion than the asph to be fair.

Edited April 21, 2016 by lct

[Rick]

I meant to say, that those characteristics I described didn't pertain to anyone's copy who was reading my post.  

 

@Jeff - No, it didn't.  But, at least he shot the new King wide open.

 

Rick

[TRIago]

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Martin, the trend you mention arises only from the fact that the Summicron 35mm ver. IV has taken on the crown of "Bokeh King." It is a much sought after lens because of this fact. Leica collectors and shooters through the years have incorrectly interpreted the review that the lens shot wide open has some sort of superior bokeh.

 

The reality is that the lens has moderate contrast which falls off in the corners, exhibits quite a bit of vignetting, is soft in the corners and exhibits coma and astigmatism.

 

But, collectors have driven up the price due to an incorrect rumor that the lens shot wide open is the "King of Bokeh. Unfortunately, although the person has long ago explained his review criteria, the legend lives on.

 

Rick

I agree. This is not the first time that I say this to the exact same person: the prices were like this in the past few years. And I mean even before the first A7 was released.

 

I was out in the market to buy a 35mm summicron and all the good ones I found had similar prices (between v4 and asph). I understand the v4 is a nice lens but when I did compare the two of them before buying, I could not understand why the prices were similar. Yes, the Asph is the sharper specially wide open.

 

Again this was before any Sony A7 was released.

So my opinion is that at least in this case, Sony cameras have nothing to do with prices of V4 vs Asph. Unless someone proves me wrong, which can happen. Who knows.

[Martin B]

Martin, the trend you mention arises only from the fact that the Summicron 35mm ver. IV has taken on the crown of "Bokeh King."  It is a much sought after lens because of this fact.  Leica collectors and shooters through the years have incorrectly interpreted the review that the lens shot wide open has some sort of superior bokeh.

 

 The reality is that the lens has moderate contrast which falls off in the corners, exhibits quite a bit of vignetting, is soft in the corners and exhibits coma and astigmatism.  

 

But, collectors have driven up the price due to an incorrect rumor that the lens shot wide open is the "King of Bokeh.  Unfortunately, although the person has long ago explained his review criteria, the legend lives on.

 

Rick

 

I suspected that someone will bring up the bokeh-king excuse here. I severely doubt that alone causes this steep price increase especially seen in the past few years. I don't see the 7-element 35/2 as a collector lens - people simply prefer to have the older non ASPH version. I said it above, the price for the 35/2 ASPH lens dropped instead in the last two years - once around $2600, you can get it now easily for $2100 or less if lucky. There is nothing wrong with the ASPH lens - it is just limited in its use for Leica cameras only. 

 

I fully disagree from my experience with the 7-element 35/2 lens compared to what you describe above. There is nothing wrong with the contrast at all, there is no vignetting wide open, and your statement about the corner astigmatism is not visible to me either. And of course at f/2 I like just the focus point being in focus. 

It is a great and sharp lens even on my A7R with 36 MP FF sensor. 

[lct]

[...] There is nothing wrong with the ASPH lens - it is just limited in its use for Leica cameras only. [...]

 

Works fine with my A7s mod as well. 

[otto.f]

I suspected that someone will bring up the bokeh-king excuse here. I severely doubt that alone causes this steep price increase especially seen in the past few years. I don't see the 7-element 35/2 as a collector lens - people simply prefer to have the older non ASPH version. I said it above, the price for the 35/2 ASPH lens dropped instead in the last two years - once around $2600, you can get it now easily for $2100 or less if lucky. There is nothing wrong with the ASPH lens - it is just limited in its use for Leica cameras only. 

 

I fully disagree from my experience with the 7-element 35/2 lens compared to what you describe above. There is nothing wrong with the contrast at all, there is no vignetting wide open, and your statement about the corner astigmatism is not visible to me either. And of course at f/2 I like just the focus point being in focus. 

It is a great and sharp lens even on my A7R with 36 MP FF sensor. 

 

I totally agree, although I had my summicron 35 iv serviced to get better results at 2.0 at close focus, which made a big difference. 

 

I even play with the idea the let my 35FLE at home in favor of the version iv when I go to Peru next month because of the weight

[Martin B]

Works fine with my A7s mod as well. 

 

That's interesting - I suspect that the Kolari modification of the glass cover improved the overall performance especially in the corners. The lower overall resolution of the A7S sensor helps, too.  

[james.liam]

Works fine with my A7s mod as well.

That's interesting - I suspect that the Kolari modification of the glass cover improved the overall performance especially in the corners. The lower overall resolution of the A7S sensor helps, too.

I've closely followed the various 'flavors' of the Sony a7 with the hope of getting one--bought a Novoflex M >> E that's still untouched in its original package almost 3 years later-- and even with the Kolari mod, wides remain compromised in the corners. Even a 50 APO isn't its usual self.

 

I will grant Monsieur 'lct' a shift-less copy of the 35 Summicron ASPH (many, including myself, will not agree) but a fully-compliant a7s too? Hmmm.....

Edited April 22, 2016 by james.liam

[lct]

Facts are facts my friend... You've seen mine about the so-called focus shift of the 35/2 asph and you can see my facts about the A7s mod as well, i.e. rather soft corners at f/2 out of the 35/2 asph but hardly more than with the M240. See http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249421-sony-fans-show-your-sharp-corners-with-m-r-wides/page-2. BTW the 50/2 apo works fine on my A7s mod as well as my 50/1.4 asph and pre-asph, 50/2 non apo, 50/2.5, 50/2.8 v1 & v2. I have no experience with faster than f/1.4 lenses though.

[james.liam]

Votre kilométrage peut varier (VKPV)

Edited April 22, 2016 by james.liam

[lct]

Great literal translation! Fluently we would say "chacun voit midi a sa porte" (everyone sees noon at his doorstep) from the times when there were sundials at houses. True about opinions, less so about facts though .

[microview]

I see there's a comparison review, old versus new 35 Summicron, on YouTube. Conclusion is that the hood is nice but blocks the view; blurred backgrounds are smoother, but no improvement in overall resolution. So don't upgrade from older version. Don't know how much credibility this desrves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47fLwOTYhBc.

[honcho]

I see there's a comparison review, old versus new 35 Summicron, on YouTube. Conclusion is that the hood is nice but blocks the view; blurred backgrounds are smoother, but no improvement in overall resolution. So don't upgrade from older version. Don't know how much credibility this desrves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47fLwOTYhBc.

It's neither a review or deserves any credibility as such. The video is a series of predictable generic opinions, unrehersed monologue with nothing worthwhile to substantiate them. No comparison images and no side by side close-ups of the two lenses. Leica's own promotional material tells you more. I would agree there seems to be little point in replacing the previous version with this one unless 2 more diaphragm blades are irresistible. One thing is certain, it won't be appreciably better for most practical use than the previous 35mm summicron asph, which is a great little lens anyway.

[Rick]

I suspected that someone will bring up the bokeh-king excuse here. I severely doubt that alone causes this steep price increase especially seen in the past few years. I don't see the 7-element 35/2 as a collector lens - people simply prefer to have the older non ASPH version. I said it above, the price for the 35/2 ASPH lens dropped instead in the last two years - once around $2600, you can get it now easily for $2100 or less if lucky. There is nothing wrong with the ASPH lens - it is just limited in its use for Leica cameras only. 

 

I fully disagree from my experience with the 7-element 35/2 lens compared to what you describe above. There is nothing wrong with the contrast at all, there is no vignetting wide open, and your statement about the corner astigmatism is not visible to me either. And of course at f/2 I like just the focus point being in focus. 

It is a great and sharp lens even on my A7R with 36 MP FF sensor. 

 

 

Martin,

 

The price of the 35 ASPH has gone  down because a new lens has come out, simple as that.

 

As far as your contention that the 7-element 35mm is contrasty, has no vignetting, and has no astigmatism visible to you doesn't mean that it isn't there.  It is a nice older design lens but, it isn't up to modern standards in these areas - which doesn't mean it isn't a great little lens.

 

Rick

Edited April 29, 2016 by Rick

[Paulus]

The price of the NEW 35asph has gone down in Germany:

 

https://www.meister-camera.com/en/product/5807/summicron-20-35mm-asph-silbern-verchromt

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[steppenw0lf]

Well this lens made me happy for 20+ years i must say. I now prefer the 35/2 asph but i still miss the small size and weight of the v4 which has less CA and distortion than the asph to be fair.

I also enjoy this lens since the early nineties and still use it often (more often than the AA). I never knew it was "king of bokeh". And I am sure that I would simply have shrugged it off (because it's foolish/ridiculous). It was simply the standard 35mm for the M, so it was the second lens I bought. (The first was a used Elmar 4/135 from 1961 and that made it quite cheap). And I never had the feeling I needed to replace it,

I am always slightly surprised what a great fuss is made about the latest "improved" lenses. In my eyes the only big improvement  is the 28mm. It once was an expensive, but rather cumbersome lens. While now it is one of the best and can be had for a decent price (the Elmarit, not the Summilux, and also the Summicron is great, actually all three are great performers.). And the WATE was a step in a new direction but very pricey. The Summicron 50 "always" was a reference and the new Apo 50 did not make a big difference (well maybe in price and for the collectors).

 

And if anybody would like to add that these lenses are not up to standards, then I have to say that my favorite camera also isn't because it has only 24MP. And additionally I am also not , because I am wearing glasses, have little hair left and so would never be allowed in front of a camera.  

Edited July 24, 2016 by steppenw0lf