EVF brightness and contrast

[scott kirkpatrick]

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I'm intrigued that the recently announced Fuji GFX will come with a removable EVF, which I'm hoping indicates the possibility for future upgrade without changing body.

 

Jeff

 

 The example of the M240 might be relevant.  When it came out using the EVF-2, it was identical to Olympus' VF-2 viewfinder used for the E-P5 and some earlier models.  Olympus at about the same time offered its much improved VF-4, but that couldn't be used on the M[240], because the viewfinder bandwidth that the M[240] was capable of was not enough to drive the better viewfinder.  In that case, Leica used an external viewfinder simply to save themselves development cost and schedule.  They weren't looking to provide an upgrade path.

 

scott

[Jeff S]

Exactly.  Post #78.

 

Jeff

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[chris_tribble]

Continuing with the topic - what is people's experience shooting against the light?  

 

With Exposure Preview on I find it really difficult to shoot against the light, but with EP off, things feel much more normal.  I can expose for a shadow area and reframe and shoot without wild fluctuations of dark/light distracting and making focus problematic.

 

ODDLY, if I chose spot metering this seems to turn on EP.  Any advice / experience or I have I missed earlier comment?  With the example here it was much easier to use centre weighted metering, expose off the mid-shadow and then re-frame.  Trying to use spot metering was counter-intuitive and problematic.  Clearly I'm still learning with the SL (and perhaps having to adjust from working with the M)!

 

PS - I have no SL lenses - happily working with a range of M glass + a couple of R zooms

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[haydenc]

To reply to the comments about DR of EVFs.

 

I don't find the DR of EVFs an issue. I actually find it an advantage as you see the world closer to what the end picture will look like.

Which then you can make adjustments accordingly.

 

However that being said, the problem is not EVFs, it is the SL's EVF.

The SL's EVF is too dark in bright conditions.

Leica have known about it since at least Dec 2015 when I took my SL back to the dealer the day after receiving it asking for a replacement camera.

The LCD has the ability to adjust the brightness.

 

You can adjust the brightness of the EVF on the M240 and also the T.

The ability to adjust the brightness was not available in the M or T to begin with. It was added in firmware in both cases.

I just want to be able to adjust the EVF like those other cameras.

I don't understand why it has taken this long to address...

It annoys me every time I use the camera

[hmathias]

To reply to the comments about DR of EVFs.

 

I don't find the DR of EVFs an issue. I actually find it an advantage as you see the world closer to what the end picture will look like.

Which then you can make adjustments accordingly.

 

However that being said, the problem is not EVFs, it is the SL's EVF.

The SL's EVF is too dark in bright conditions.

Leica have known about it since at least Dec 2015 when I took my SL back to the dealer the day after receiving it asking for a replacement camera.

The LCD has the ability to adjust the brightness.

 

You can adjust the brightness of the EVF on the M240 and also the T.

The ability to adjust the brightness was not available in the M or T to begin with. It was added in firmware in both cases.

I just want to be able to adjust the EVF like those other cameras.

I don't understand why it has taken this long to address...

It annoys me every time I use the camera

 

 

I have no experience with the SL yet (I am planning on buying one) to use with my M240, and M lenses. But I do have a lot of experience in digital cinema with cameras that have HDR. These cameras often have 14+ stops of camera sensor latitude and are often used with an EVF viewfinder of 10 stops latitude, or a REC 709 monitor which is the same. We are very used to shooting images that we can't see properly in the VF. Some part of the image rendering (often the shadows) will be compressed in the EVF.

 

It is entirely possible that the SL viewfinder can't handle the full shadow detail of the SL imager output without "over-exposing" the highlights, and that is why Leica hasn't overtly allowed you to manually "turn up" the EVF brightness in back-lit sunlight.

 

It is also possible that the M 240 and the T EVF can be "brightened up" because they are much closer to a 10 stop latitude range. Tonal range testing on my M 240 indicates that this is true. I haven't tested an SL yet, and I never have had a T to test.

 

Harry

Edited October 10, 2016 by hmathias

[chris_tribble]

It is also possible that the M 240 and the T EVF can be "brightened up" because they are much closer to a 10 stop latitude range. Tonal range testing on my M 240 indicates that this is true. I haven't tested an SL yet, and I never have had a T to test.

 

Harry

 

Harry - a very interesting contribution.  One of the things I'm enjoying with the SL is this additional latitude range.  It has a subtle but still striking impact, particularly on landscape photography.  Maybe it's just a question of learning to see this as a "feature" rather than a problem

[haydenc]

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Harry, to your post above.

I would much rather the EVF overexpose so I can see shadow detail than be too dark.

There are some guys that overexpose the image to trick the SL into showing a brighter view finder.

 

However for me, even if I change the settings so that the image is completely overexposed, the view finder shows a greyish colour not white.

As stated at the start of this thread when I started it back in Dec 2015, I estimate my SL shows the EVF to be 2 to 3 stops below what it should be in bright light.

I have compared it to the M240, T, Dlux typ 109, Fuji Xpro 2 and it is the darkest of the lot.

All these cameras you can adjust the EVF brightness however I leave the default setting.

 

It is only the SL I want to adjust and I can't.

[jaapv]

I have no experience with the SL yet (I am planning on buying one) to use with my M240, and M lenses. But I do have a lot of experience in digital cinema with cameras that have HDR. These cameras often have 14+ stops of camera sensor latitude and are often used with an EVF viewfinder of 10 stops latitude, or a REC 709 monitor which is the same. We are very used to shooting images that we can't see properly in the VF. Some part of the image rendering (often the shadows) will be compressed in the EVF.

 

It is entirely possible that the SL viewfinder can't handle the full shadow detail of the SL imager output without "over-exposing" the highlights, and that is why Leica hasn't overtly allowed you to manually "turn up" the EVF brightness in back-lit sunlight.

 

It is also possible that the M 240 and the T EVF can be "brightened up" because they are much closer to a 10 stop latitude range. Tonal range testing on my M 240 indicates that this is true. I haven't tested an SL yet, and I never have had a T to test.

 

Harry

According to DXOmark the M240 has a DR of 13.3 and the SL a DR of 13.4 .

[hmathias]

Harry, to your post above.

I would much rather the EVF overexpose so I can see shadow detail than be too dark.

There are some guys that overexpose the image to trick the SL into showing a brighter view finder.

 

However for me, even if I change the settings so that the image is completely overexposed, the view finder shows a greyish colour not white.

As stated at the start of this thread when I started it back in Dec 2015, I estimate my SL shows the EVF to be 2 to 3 stops below what it should be in bright light.

I have compared it to the M240, T, Dlux typ 109, Fuji Xpro 2 and it is the darkest of the lot.

All these cameras you can adjust the EVF brightness however I leave the default setting.

 

It is only the SL I want to adjust and I can't.

 

Hmm, again I have not yet bought my SL, and so I only looked at one once, and then not in sunlight. But the behavior that you are describing (greying off of the highlights when brightened up too much), indicates that the high resolution LCD or OLED, of the display has insufficient drive power when it is overdriven. That high a resolution and pixels that are that small, often result in local area charge leakage characteristics, where gross overdriving spreads to adjacent pixels. Image artifacts such as "blooming" whites when the display is overdriven, are similar defects. If your EVF grays off then it probably can't drive the monitor enough when turned up so high by increasing sensor exposure compensation. Leica is very responsive to user requests in my experience, if they are not complying with the EVF bright-up request it may be because they think it unwise to do that.

 

As I have followed this thread, many here have learned to cope with the display's dynamic range quirks with Exposure Preview or otherwise. For my part, I can't believe that over exposing the sensor (and thus the final image) is the best way to deal with EVF display limitations! My M9 showed me NOTHING of the image and I took some great pictures with it, partly because I never overexposed it to make the image "look right".. 

 

Harry

[FlashGordonPhotography]

According to DXOmark the M240 has a DR of 13.3 and the SL a DR of 13.4 .

 

I have both and the difference in real world usable DR (as apart from a lab measurement) is more than 1/10th of a stop. More like 2/3 of a stop. Maybe even a tad more.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

 

As I have followed this thread, many here have learned to cope with the display's dynamic range quirks with Exposure Preview or otherwise. For my part, I can't believe that over exposing the sensor (and thus the final image) is the best way to deal with EVF display limitations! My M9 showed me NOTHING of the image and I took some great pictures with it, partly because I never overexposed it to make the image "look right".. 

 

Harry

 

That's not what happens.

 

In M mode, on the camera, exposure compensation does not affect the sensor exposure. But for some reason it does affect the brightness of the EVF. So you can make the viewfinder brighter or darker, independently of the exposure, but it's a cludge and it only works in M mode.

 

On the downside, if you've been in A, T or P modes and switch to M mode any exposure compensation you may have set there will now affect the VF brightness, when you probably didn't want it to.

 

It's a pain.

 

Gordon

[larsv]

Agree, it seems to work well up to the moment you lock exposure.

[hmathias]

According to DXOmark the M240 has a DR of 13.3 and the SL a DR of 13.4 .

 

I have no doubt that that is true, using their testing methods (which I haven't looked into). I tested my M240 against my previous M9 in a stop sequential un-processed grey-card exposure test — that I have been doing on cameras for years. While the M240 had a solid 10+ stop dynamic range like the M9, the two brightest stops were not as usable as the M9's blown out top 2 stops. Even so I love the M240 imaging results as long as you don't hit the white clipper limit too hard. The M9 you can blowout highlights and it looks very "natural".

 

As the Heisenberg Principle suggests, the way you ask the question determines your results, and what they mean in actual use. I have seen other people's SL test shots that show a better blown highlight rendering then my M 240 would produce in a similar situation.

 

Harry  

[hmathias]

That's not what happens.

 

In M mode, on the camera, exposure compensation does not affect the sensor exposure. But for some reason it does affect the brightness of the EVF. So you can make the viewfinder brighter or darker, independently of the exposure, but it's a cludge and it only works in M mode.

 

On the downside, if you've been in A, T or P modes and switch to M mode any exposure compensation you may have set there will now affect the VF brightness, when you probably didn't want it to.

 

It's a pain.

 

Gordon

Good to know, thanks! As I haven't received my SL yet. I am just trying to learn from the experience of others.

 

Harry

[haydenc]

Harry the SL is a great camera in most respects.

It is only let down by a few quirks that hopefully can be fixed in the near future.

[haydenc]

Hmm, again I have not yet bought my SL, and so I only looked at one once, and then not in sunlight. But the behavior that you are describing (greying off of the highlights when brightened up too much), indicates that the high resolution LCD or OLED, of the display has insufficient drive power when it is overdriven. That high a resolution and pixels that are that small, often result in local area charge leakage characteristics, where gross overdriving spreads to adjacent pixels. Image artifacts such as "blooming" whites when the display is overdriven, are similar defects. If your EVF grays off then it probably can't drive the monitor enough when turned up so high by increasing sensor exposure compensation. Leica is very responsive to user requests in my experience, if they are not complying with the EVF bright-up request it may be because they think it unwise to do that.

 

As I have followed this thread, many here have learned to cope with the display's dynamic range quirks with Exposure Preview or otherwise. For my part, I can't believe that over exposing the sensor (and thus the final image) is the best way to deal with EVF display limitations! My M9 showed me NOTHING of the image and I took some great pictures with it, partly because I never overexposed it to make the image "look right".. 

 

Harry

I really don't think that is the case with the SL.

I haven't seen a LCD monitor or tv etc that you can't adjust the backlight brightness on.

The SL viewfinder is great in low light. It gains the image up nicely.

It is just in bright sun light (which is where I use the camera 90% of the time) where it is too dark.

 

On using the exposure preview to trick the camera to showing a brighter image.

You have to use M mode as Gordon mentioned above.

However there is a serious bug with the metering when you do.

If you change the exposure compensation to say +1, it changes the mid point of the meter so that +1 is now 0.

So if you want to meter to get the correct exposure, you need to adjust your manual settings so the meter reads -1.

(If you rely on the meter to help set your manual exposure).

To make matters worse, if you use Aperture priority and have exposure compensation dialled in, if you then switch to M mode and forget that you had exposure comp adjusted, the meter is off by whatever the exp comp is set to.

 

As a result of these quirks, I refuse to use this "trick" as I fear I may forget about the settings and adjust accordingly.

I just want a fix and I have been waiting for 10 months for 1 that should not take this long.

 

I am still waiting for a few bugs to be fixed in the T which I have been complaining about for over 2 years...

[hmathias]

I really don't think that is the case with the SL.

I haven't seen a LCD monitor or tv etc that you can't adjust the backlight brightness on.

The SL viewfinder is great in low light. It gains the image up nicely.

It is just in bright sun light (which is where I use the camera 90% of the time) where it is too dark.

 

On using the exposure preview to trick the camera to showing a brighter image.

You have to use M mode as Gordon mentioned above.

However there is a serious bug with the metering when you do.

If you change the exposure compensation to say +1, it changes the mid point of the meter so that +1 is now 0.

So if you want to meter to get the correct exposure, you need to adjust your manual settings so the meter reads -1.

(If you rely on the meter to help set your manual exposure).

To make matters worse, if you use Aperture priority and have exposure compensation dialled in, if you then switch to M mode and forget that you had exposure comp adjusted, the meter is off by whatever the exp comp is set to.

 

As a result of these quirks, I refuse to use this "trick" as I fear I may forget about the settings and adjust accordingly.

I just want a fix and I have been waiting for 10 months for 1 that should not take this long.

 

I am still waiting for a few bugs to be fixed in the T which I have been complaining about for over 2 years...

 

Thanks for that clarification. I have always used M on all of my cameras. So that isn't an issue, but the metering bug is annoying. Would that bug also affect the histogram? If indeed the histogram display can be optionally shown in the viewfinder?  

 

Harry

[madrigalmaster]

I just bought a Leica SL and I have exactly the same problem with the viewfinder.

I have a Leica M10 with the EVF and it is much superior in quality.

 

I am not sure what the problem is.I was going to return the camera but I think I will keep it but

I like the M10 better, really.I know is a different camera but with M lenses is only OK.

 

Luis

[BernardC]

Luis,

 

Make sure your SL has the latest firmware loaded. The current version is 3.2 (but it may be higher when you read this). Leica has tweaked EVF operation over the years.

 

That being said, the SL EVF could be brighter in full sunlight. It can take a few seconds for your eye to adapt. I find that wearing a hat with a dark visor helps. You can also try wearing sunglasses that you remove just before bringing the SL to you eye.

 

Cinematographers often use eye cups on their viewfinders to block-out stray light. I don't know of any specific models that would fit the SL.

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[la1402]

May I get back to this. I am testing my new SL2-S and today found that the EVF and screen are  very dark when I am outside and the brightness settings are at thier middle position. . You can adjust this in the menu, but it is pretty much at the end of the menu, so it is a tedious process. Super annyoing that there is no sensor. But is there any way to move this setting to the front or even assign it to a key - I tried favoritoues but that does not work? It is important to me as I plan to use the camera outdoors a lot.