Sticky Paterson reels...I've tried it all and nothing works. :(

[M.Hilo]

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Since photo forums existed the Paterson system is a returning story - about the loading problems and the reactions of people who manage to make it work for them. To me the paterson system is like continuously driving a car in reverse. It is something I will never get used too, no matter how careful I would be. Obviously there are people who can make it work and good for them!

 

I lucked out because for some reason I began developing (end 70ties) with HP Combina tanks. A plastic system, their reels take the film from the inside to the outside, it's always easy. The film gets pulled on to the reels, instead of pushed on to the reels . .

 

If I were you I would forget about the Paterson tanks, continue with the Hewes system and if you come across a Combina tank, get it to see for yourself. Make sure it is complete with orange loader that comes in two parts. If you do not quite understand how to work it, you can pm me. They're called HP Combina or Gepe or Krause . . . They exist for 135 film, 1 reel, 2 reel and 5 reel tanks and for 120 film 1 reel and 3 reel tanks . . .

[250swb]

Paterson reel was/is an industry standard device when almost all pro darkroom setups would have use them. I've used them over a period of nearly 40 years in college darkrooms, newspaper darkrooms, amateur darkrooms, and community darkrooms, and my own darkroom. Any problems with the Paterson reel have tended to only emerge recently, and the reel hasn't changed. Any individual problems with technique are ramped up because of the internet and the need for instant gratification. If at first you don't succeed complain about it and say it's rubbish. But just imagine all those people who don't complain about the Paterson reel, who still use them in pro darkrooms, college darkrooms, and amateur darkrooms, it is by far the (silent) majority of darkroom users.

 

 

Steve

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[rpavich]

Paterson reel was/is an industry standard device when almost all pro darkroom setups would have use them. I've used them over a period of nearly 40 years in college darkrooms, newspaper darkrooms, amateur darkrooms, and community darkrooms, and my own darkroom. Any problems with the Paterson reel have tended to only emerge recently, and the reel hasn't changed. Any individual problems with technique are ramped up because of the internet and the need for instant gratification. If at first you don't succeed complain about it and say it's rubbish. But just imagine all those people who don't complain about the Paterson reel, who still use them in pro darkrooms, college darkrooms, and amateur darkrooms, it is by far the (silent) majority of darkroom users.

 

 

Steve

It's certainly not instant gratification I'm after. I've been using these reels for months without issue. It's not as if I don't know how to load them or use them. I didn't just pop off the first minute I had some problem...that's what's so frustrating.

 

I began having issues where I had none before so I suspected that they weren't clean enough or that there was some build up or something. (since nothing else in the chain was different than before) and as I said at the first post...I've tried it all and nothing helps, which baffles me.

 

I'm willing to try anything that will fix this issue, just let me know what it is.

 

As the previous poster said; some folks make it work effortlessly, some folks can never get them to be reliable and there is no pattern that emerges. Some folks clean them religiously, some don't, some have to use lots of tricks just to get them to load without issue, some don't worry about it and never clean them or take care and they work fine. There is not a real discernable pattern, but lots of folklore out there.

 

For myself, I spent tons of time surfing all kinds of forums to figure out what I could do to make them work, and I found that there was no pattern....nothing I could point to that would fix the problem...as the title said...I tried it all.

 

I was far from crying at the first sign of trouble...far from it.

 

If you've got a solution, by all means...please share it.

[M.Hilo]

Paterson reel was/is an industry standard device when almost all pro darkroom setups would have use them. I've used them over a period of nearly 40 years in college darkrooms, newspaper darkrooms, amateur darkrooms, and community darkrooms, and my own darkroom. Any problems with the Paterson reel have tended to only emerge recently, and the reel hasn't changed. Any individual problems with technique are ramped up because of the internet and the need for instant gratification. If at first you don't succeed complain about it and say it's rubbish. But just imagine all those people who don't complain about the Paterson reel, who still use them in pro darkrooms, college darkrooms, and amateur darkrooms, it is by far the (silent) majority of darkroom users.

 

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

I did not mean any disrespect !

 

I am a pro, like you and for about the same number of years, and I still am. As I said before it is great you and many other manage to work with this system. I had to work with it a number of times, well before the internet existed, and I was one of the many who did not manage to work with it.

 

I felt the original poster is precisely NOT what you suggest, the quick complainer when he does not understand something. I know I am not like that. I simply try to help him think of alternatives.

 

Michael

[250swb]

If you've got a solution, by all means...please share it.

I already have, you may not have had the time to read it. And no the post was not aimed at you, it was adding some context that the Paterson system is the most widely used around the world, so why would that be? If there is a problem loading the reel you just slow down and nudge the film on with tiny movements, it barely takes any more time. But what we have generally in photo forums when people have a problem loading a Paterson reel is not the simple expedient of adapting to a thinner film base or more grabby emulsion surface, but to throw hands in the air and declare 'everything is wrong!' It is simply having some mechanical sympathy in the situation, just like choosing the correct screwdriver for the screw head. But some people will still use a metaphorical hammer, and you will see that on many photo forums, impatience and intolerance that life just isn't always smooth and fast.

 

 

Steve

[rpavich]

 If there is a problem loading the reel you just slow down and nudge the film on with tiny movements, it barely takes any more time.

 

Steve

 

I did that, and I remarked that it helped...but it was still very sticky and I was almost not successful in getting the film on the reel.

 

My question actually is; why did it start sticking in the first place when it wasn't sticking for two months prior...and what can be done to stop the sticking?

 

I do realize that man-handling it wasn't helping (and I said so before) but that doesn't solve the underlying issue.

 

When I first got the reels, and for two months after, I could load just as fast as I could spin them. Then one day I could hardly get through a reel without it freezing up.

 

I'm wondering what happened, and how to go back to the way it was.

 

that's all.

[Martin B]

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I am also still fairly new to the whole film development with the Paterson tank, but so far everything worked for me. The most challenging step here indeed is to get the whole 35 mm film on the reel (normally I have 38 exposures on one film). I was very fortunate the first time I tried it - beginners luck, and I got the whole film on the reel very quickly on the first try even I never tried to do it with a spare film in regular daylight first. Afterwards I often had trouble at the last third part of the film to bring it into the reel. The film tends to leave the rail, and then I have to open the whole reel and start from the beginning. I like the advice given here to try to push the film slowly into the reel instead of using the bearing based back and forward rotation. My impression is also that the bearings can cause some little misadjustment that the film goes off track or gets stuck. Maybe I did it a bit too fast, too. In the end it always worked for me, no film was harmed, and the negatives turned out great after they were developed.  

 

I also recommend to use thin nitrile gloves doing this job - it avoids touching the negative and leaving marks behind, and the film is protected from humidity.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Martin B

[Guest )-(]

I keep at least one thumb resting on the reel edge - just above the recess in the slot where the film is entering the reel as I ratchet things back and forth - not quite touching the film but close enough to sense the film is correctly entering these guides.

 

It gives some reassuring tactile feedback that the film is still loading onto the reel and makes it feel easier to pause if things get awkward/cack-handed in there. I make sure a thumb remains there, or go back there if I stop (to trim end of film etc.) I find it makes it a lot easier to always know where the entry point to the reel is, losing sense of that makes it more awkward.

 

(For me) it's only when there's a difficult moment of worrying that the film is slipping between the reels/losing sense of where the recess slots/bearings are that there could be a problem.

When my hands lose sense of what's happening in there, it can make things awkward, I might overcompensate and <<pop>> there really is a problem. 

 

I just stick with the intended motion of the reels, sometimes have to go a little slow but generally they really really want to do what they were designed for.

Hot sticky hands/film is the only real bugbear, but if it gets too hot just stop, cool off and return refreshed.

 

Did you go back to using a dud roll in daylight to watch what you are doing? That would be my suggested solution. Back to basics, take it slow, stop and set things down in the tank with lid on if you find it getting awkward, not like you're in a rush or anything. Slow and steady wins the race.

 

If the reels work fine in daylight, there's no reason at all that they shouldn't be working correctly in the bag. Fear is the mind killer.

[rpavich]

 

 

Did you go back to using a dud roll in daylight to watch what you are doing? That would be my suggested solution. Back to basics, take it slow, stop and set things down in the tank with lid on if you find it getting awkward, not like you're in a rush or anything. Slow and steady wins the race.

 

If the reels work fine in daylight, there's no reason at all that they shouldn't be working correctly in the bag. Fear is the mind killer.

 

I did everything you said and nothing helped as a permanent solution. I went to metal reels and never looked back. They are a breeze to load, they never stick and I don't have to make sure that they are bone dry before reusing.

 

PS: Eventually they didn't work fine in daylight. They got hard to load about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way through and nothing alleviated the situation.

[fotohuis]

If you can handle metal reels it is a good solution. Further I can advise Jobo 15xx or 25xx or the AP developing tank. The Jobo tanks are universal in the Jobo processors but expensive.

[pico]

If you do only one roll at a time, google "rondinax". It loads in daylight, too.

I've never tried it. Just an idea.

[rpavich]

If you do only one roll at a time, google "rondinax". It loads in daylight, too.

I've never tried it. Just an idea.

 

Got one, it works great.

[PaulJohn]

I had a tough one this week. I managed to get the whole reel on by slightly pulling the sides away from each other as I twisted.

[ph.]

Some years since I last developed a film. The Patersons dependence on getting the  film pushed from the outside inwards -in my experience- was too sensitive to wear. With time friction would increase and make it ever more difficult to "push-twist", so I gave up on that system. I did however keep my "Kindermann" stainless steel tanks and a few of their steel reels. They load "from the inside out" and film has to be pressed in a slight curve to fit. The Kindermann type also had a film leading device to aid loading if you worried that with hand-loading some rounds might stick and destroy part of the film.

 

p.

[adan]

Last time I used Paterson plastic system was about 1972. For good reason.

 

In all my years in hospital/newspaper/magazine darkrooms, I never saw Paterson used. Always Nikor-style metal reels and tanks (or larger systems: dip-and-dunk, rotary machines).

[rpavich]

 Any individual problems with technique are ramped up because of the internet and the need for instant gratification. If at first you don't succeed complain about it and say it's rubbish. 

 

Steve

 

Again...you make sweeping generalities that just aren't true.

 

Just because you like them while other folks have struggled to make them work doesn't mean that they "need instant gratification" nor did anyone say that "they are rubbish". It means that some folks cannot get them to work no matter how many different things that they've tried (or did you not bother to actually READ my OP and the subsequent posts about all of the things that I've tried?)

 

I've read TONS of threads on this issue and nowhere did I see folks like little babies needing instant gratification....nowhere. For myself, since I had the problems, I spent a LOT of time working things out and nothing did work.

Edited February 17, 2016 by rpavich

[rpavich]

I had a tough one this week. I managed to get the whole reel on by slightly pulling the sides away from each other as I twisted.

I promise you; if you get a hewes reel and a metal tank, you will forever have a smile on your face when loading your reels. (buy the reel new, you don't want  to get stuck with a slightly bent one from ebay)

 

Don't be afraid, Hewes reels practically load themselves. And bonus, they use less chemicals than the big plastic tanks.

Edited February 17, 2016 by rpavich

[250swb]

Again...you make sweeping generalities that just aren't true.

 

 

How long have you been an expert on anything to do with film photography? Your short career so far has been a car crash time after time, and now you are dolling out advice like an effing expert. I do notice the way you scuttle around waiting for somebody disagree with me so you can join in, but proper photographers like Andy can discuss things from an experience base, and we all have lots of experience, except you.

[rpavich]

How long have you been an expert on anything to do with film photography? Your short career so far has been a car crash time after time, and now you are dolling out advice like an effing expert. I do notice the way you scuttle around waiting for somebody disagree with me so you can join in, but proper photographers like Andy can discuss things from an experience base, and we all have lots of experience, except you.

 

And a strong finish by insulting me.

 

How refreshing.

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[honcho]

Oh man am I frustrated.

 

I have a Paterson tank with two of the plastic auto loading reels ...........

 

I do not use photoflo either, just a water rinse.

 

I don't know what else to try. I read about folks who never clean anything and have great success and others who have to try all the tricks or they jam up too.

 

 

I do use wetting agent and I use Patterson reels.  I use them in the same way that I've used them for over 40 years and at least two of my Patterson reels have been with me through thick and thin and are still used in the same way without a problem so far. In fact, I can almost chart the change of material and subtle design changes in their manufacture over several decades.

 

Since you seem to have tried just about everything without success, try this:

 

Throw them away and buy some new reels.