Advices for constituting an M lenses kit

[Bohns]

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Hello all !
 
First of all, and since this is my first post in this forum, I need to introduce myself.
I am French and leave in the French Alps, in the Grenoble area (the location of the 1968 winter olympics). I am 43 years old.
 
I am a photo fan since I was a young boy. In the last 25 years, I have owned and used some film Olympus SLRs and lenses (OM system), some Olympus DSLR and lenses (4/3 system) and moved to Canon DSLR system 3 years ago, after Olympus clearly demonstrated they would not continue developing the 4/3 system to move to m4/3. I am now using both a FF body (5D mark III) and APS-C body (7D mark II). Since I started with this brand, I accumulated quite good pieces of glass, but it is very bulky and very heavy. Although those constraints are almost unavoidable and totally accepted for my wildlife photography practice, they are more and more impacting my everyday photography. 
 
As a consequence, I bought a Leica Q last summer.
 
I should have not. How have I been bumped by the colors and the famous "Leica rendering" ! I am now addicted, and intend to enter into the M system. But I would need some advices to build a first kit, considering that I own this diabolic gem which is the Q. Note also that  I do not intend to sell my Canon bodies nor my Canon glass yet (for wildlife and as a back-up in case I would not adapt to the rangefinder manual focusing).
 
Here are my set-ups and doubts. I would really appreciate your insights to help me. Do not hesitate to criticize what I write : I am clearly a layperson in the M system.
 
General input : I would probably buy new (not used) in order to be able to re-sell more easily in case I do not adapt to the rangefinder manual focus after several months or a year. There is no Leica Store nor reseller close to where I leave, so I cannot have a try before buying.
 
Input question 1 : I tend to consider that the Q is already covering amazingly well the 28 mm, 35 mm and 50 mm focal, even if the depth of field remain that of a 28f1.7 and despite the resolution is lowered to 8 MP (which is still good, as I feel concerned). My "introduction kit to the M system" would then first scope the wide angle (lower than 28 mm focal) and the telephoto (higher than 50 mm focal). Am I right ?
 
Input question 2 : the Q + an M body + 2 or 3 lenses and accessories covering from wide (21 or 24) to tele (below or equal to 90) would remain lighter than the 5D markIII + 16-35L + 24-105L + accessories (about 2.0 kg vs. 2.5 kg) and would be more flexible since made of 2 bodies vs. 1. Is it according you a good approach ?
 
Assuming there is a "yes" in both input questions, here are the possible lense kits I am currently considering :

• Super-Elmar 21 f3.4 (with 21 mm mirror viewfinder) + Summarit 75 f2.4 + 1.25x eye-loop to ease focus. 
  Some might advise the APO Summicron 75 f2 rather than the Summarit, but it is bulkier and heavier (and double priced) and I would really appreciate getting some comparative feedbacks on both those lenses.
   
• Super-Elmar 21 f3.4 (with 21mm mirror viewfinder) + Summicron 50 f2 or Summilux 50 f1.4 ASPH + 1.25x eye-loop to ease focus. (assuming I would crop for the telephoto catch, potentially using the 75 mm frame lines from the viewfinder to compose despite the use of a 50).

Assuming there is a "no" in at least the input question 1, here are some alternatives I assessed :

• Super-Elmar 21 f3.4 (with 21mm mirror viewfinder) + Summarit 35 f2.4 + Summarit 75 f2.4 + 1.25x eye-loop to ease focus.
  I've been considering to replace the Summarit 35 by the Summarit 50, but I am wondering whether the 50 would not be too close with the 75...
   
• Super-Elmar 21 f3.4 (with 21mm mirror viewfinder) + Summicron 35 f2 + Summarit 75 f2.4 + 1.25x eye-loop to ease focus.
  Same as above, potentially considering the summicron 50 instead of the Summicron 35.

Other questions :

• I am really considering to bu a 1.25x eye-loop to help focusing essentially for the 75 mm or the 50 mm. Won't it be detrimental to focusing the 35mm or the 21 mm ?
   
• I am wearing glasses since I am both myope and astigmatic. I assume that it is not useful to add a dioptric corruption to the view-finder because of my astigmatism. Is it right ?
   
• Since I might use some filters (grades and or polarizer) with the 21 mm, I assume I would need the view-finder, which would be detrimental to both M-E or the new M 262. Is it true ?
   
• Would anybody from the forum have other lenses kits configurations to suggest ?
   
• Am I fool       ???

Sorry for such a long post, with such a lot of questions. But entering into the Leica M family - more than money - requires to think about it.
 
Regards,
Stef.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Bohns

[Peter Kilmister]

Stef, Welcome to the forum. You live in a beautiful part of the world.

 

The M system is amazing and you will either love it straight away or think it is not for you. So it is best to try the system out before paying a lot of money. Surely there must be a dealer near Grenoble? Perhaps you need to go to Lyon?

 

(Having eye problems can cause difficulties so please don't buy without testing the system.)

 

Regarding lenses; 35mm or 50mm are probably the general lens choices. 75mm and 90mm produce great shots. I find 135mm too bulky. Each to their own.

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

Peter

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[Al_OOF]

Stef, I am both myope and astigmatic like you.

For my 75 and 90 I bought a 1.25x and a + 0.5 correction lens (after some test vs the + 1.0 that I made at a Leica store) for a small general difficulty to focus.

Ater some times now I use always the correction lens (that helps very well) and rarely the 1.25x because I found that it was much more useful a new, more precise, pair of glasses...

[JeffWright]

Hello all !

 

First of all, and since this is my first post in this forum, I need to introduce myself.

I am French and leave in the French Alps, in the Grenoble area (the location of the 1968 winter olympics). I am 43 years old.

 

I am a photo fan since I was a young boy. In the last 25 years, I have owned and used some film Olympus SLRs and lenses (OM system), some Olympus DSLR and lenses (4/3 system) and moved to Canon DSLR system 3 years ago, after Olympus clearly demonstrated they would not continue developing the 4/3 system to move to m4/3. I am now using both a FF body (5D mark III) and APS-C body (7D mark II). Since I started with this brand, I accumulated quite good pieces of glass, but it is very bulky and very heavy. Although those constraints are almost unavoidable and totally accepted for my wildlife photography practice, they are more and more impacting my everyday photography. 

 

As a consequence, I bought a Leica Q last summer.

 

I should have not. How have I been bumped by the colors and the famous "Leica rendering" ! I am now addicted, and intend to enter into the M system. But I would need some advices to build a first kit, considering that I own this diabolic gem which is the Q. Note also that  I do not intend to sell my Canon bodies nor my Canon glass yet (for wildlife and as a back-up in case I would not adapt to the rangefinder manual focusing).

 

Here are my set-ups and doubts. I would really appreciate your insights to help me. Do not hesitate to criticize what I write : I am clearly a layperson in the M system.

 

General input : I would probably buy new (not used) in order to be able to re-sell more easily in case I do not adapt to the rangefinder manual focus after several months or a year. There is no Leica Store nor reseller close to where I leave, so I cannot have a try before buying.

 

Input question 1 : I tend to consider that the Q is already covering amazingly well the 28 mm, 35 mm and 50 mm focal, even if the depth of field remain that of a 28f1.7 and despite the resolution is lowered to 8 MP (which is still good, as I feel concerned). My "introduction kit to the M system" would then first scope the wide angle (lower than 28 mm focal) and the telephoto (higher than 50 mm focal). Am I right ?

 

Input question 2 : the Q + an M body + 2 or 3 lenses and accessories covering from wide (21 or 24) to tele (below or equal to 90) would remain lighter than the 5D markIII + 16-35L + 24-105L + accessories (about 2.0 kg vs. 2.5 kg) and would be more flexible since made of 2 bodies vs. 1. Is it according you a good approach ?

 

Assuming there is a "yes" in both input questions, here are the possible lense kits I am currently considering :

• Super-Elmar 21 f3.4 (with 21 mm mirror viewfinder) + Summarit 75 f2.4 + 1.25x eye-loop to ease focus. 

  Some might advise the APO Summicron 75 f2 rather than the Summarit, but it is bulkier and heavier (and double priced) and I would really appreciate getting some comparative feedbacks on both those lenses.

   

• Super-Elmar 21 f3.4 (with 21mm mirror viewfinder) + Summicron 50 f2 or Summilux 50 f1.4 ASPH + 1.25x eye-loop to ease focus. (assuming I would crop for the telephoto catch, potentially using the 75 mm frame lines from the viewfinder to compose despite the use of a 50).

Assuming there is a "no" in at least the input question 1, here are some alternatives I assessed :

• Super-Elmar 21 f3.4 (with 21mm mirror viewfinder) + Summarit 35 f2.4 + Summarit 75 f2.4 + 1.25x eye-loop to ease focus.

  I've been considering to replace the Summarit 35 by the Summarit 50, but I am wondering whether the 50 would not be too close with the 75...

   

• Super-Elmar 21 f3.4 (with 21mm mirror viewfinder) + Summicron 35 f2 + Summarit 75 f2.4 + 1.25x eye-loop to ease focus.

  Same as above, potentially considering the summicron 50 instead of the Summicron 35.

Other questions :

• I am really considering to bu a 1.25x eye-loop to help focusing essentially for the 75 mm or the 50 mm. Won't it be detrimental to focusing the 35mm or the 21 mm ?

   

• I am wearing glasses since I am both myope and astigmatic. I assume that it is not useful to add a dioptric corruption to the view-finder because of my astigmatism. Is it right ?

   

• Since I might use some filters (grades and or polarizer) with the 21 mm, I assume I would need the view-finder, which would be detrimental to both M-E or the new M 262. Is it true ?

   

• Would anybody from the forum have other lenses kits configurations to suggest ?

   

• Am I fool       ???

Sorry for such a long post, with such a lot of questions. But entering into the Leica M family - more than money - requires to think about it.

 

Regards,

Stef.

 

Welcome to the forum, Stef. 

 

Your choice of lenses will largely depend on your shooting style.  Personally, I would recommend starting with a 50; it's a nice complement to the 28 of the Q, and a great lens with which to learn rangefinder focusing.  The extremes of focal length on the rangefinder are more demanding, and potentially more frustrating for the beginning rangefinder user.  

 

I share some of your vision difficulties, but don't recommend particularly that you get a 1.25x correction until you try the 75 without one.  There are useful for the 90 and 135, but not necessary on the 75.

 

Hopefully you are considering a Type 240 M, so that you can use an EVF. The EVF really improves the rangefinder experience with a 21 or telephoto lens.

 

The new Summarit lenses are really quite nice lenses at all focal lengths, and bargains compared to the higher end lenses.

 

Good luck

[Winedemonium]

Welcome to the forum Stef.

 

21mm is a joy on the M because it remains such a compact set up (the Super Elmar is superb). I sometimes use an optical viewfinder for 21mm (but I use the finder from Zeiss, which I find clearer than the ones from Leica). 

 

From time to time I use 90mm or 135mm, and I have in the past used 75mm (Summilux, Summicron). For the longer focal lengths the EVF (which you will find to be very disappointing after the Q, because it is only about 1.4m dots) helps a lot, as does live view -- I usually focus first with the rangefinder patch, and then fine tune using live view for focus-critical shots at longer focal lengths on the M.

 

BUT, the main joy with the M system is rangefinder focusing, and that really means 28mm, 35mm and 50mm. Others may have different views on that point, but that's how I feel about it. And even of those who disagree with me, a fair few of them may still use on of those three focal lengths most often. I say this, to humbly suggest to you that you give most thought to your choice of 35mm or 50mm. Those two offer a great view through the rangefinder - easiest to focus and frame that way. Some users would only use 35mm and not 50mm, and some would only use 50mm and not 35mm, but I use both, and don't consider them too close to one another.

 

Are you keeping the Q? If so, then perhaps 50mm would offer you sufficient scope to pair with the Q.

 

My suggestion then would be the 21mm Super Elmar and the 50mm Summilux. Your three lens budget is then spent on two lenses. Both are front rank superb Leica lenses.

 

That said, there is nothing wrong with the Summarits.

 

The M is a very different experience to the Q, but a great one.

 

All the best!

[michaelwj]

My 2c for what it's worth;

 

Q1. No. They are entirely different beasts.

 

As an 'introduction to the M system', I would choose either a 50 or 35 as a first starting lens. As has been said above, this is where the M system shines. The M, being manual focus and aperture (at a minimum) will be very different to your Q, having the ability to auto-everything. You may not like it with either a 35 or 50, in which case you probably won't like it with a 75, 90, or likely 21. 

 

Q2. Very personal, but yes.

 

I prefer a RF set to a DSLR set, smaller and lighter, but mostly a different approach which you may or may not bond with. I some ways you are 'preaching to the choir' here.

 

Good luck with your decision, and welcome to the forum.

 

Cheers,

Michael

[jdlaing]

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28, 35, 50.

[jaapv]

I won't add to the lens advice, as other posters have that covered quite well.

 

However, I would strongly advise against using a magnifier from the start. What it might add in accuracy you don't need, except maybe for a 135 lens, and it will narrow te field of view, and lessen brightness and contrast to some extent.

It is far more important that you have the correct adaptation of the diopter strength to your particular eyesight. 43 is an age that eyes start to grow more myopic.

I would strongly advise you to take the camera to a friendly optician and use his try-out glasses between your eye and the viewfinder to find the strength you need, if any.

Read the focusing tips in the FAQ at the top of the subforum. (and a few others, like how to hold the camera, etc.)

[jaapv]

BTW, there is a Leica Boutique Store in  Lyon and one in Torino.

[IWC Doppel]

I think your on the right path,but I'd start slow regarding accumulating kit.

 

If I were you I would start with an M (assume 240 or 262) then I would add a used lens from your Leica dealer, ideally 35mm or 50. That way you can try and really assess, worse case you get close to your money back on the lens and sell on the body.

 

Nothing wrong with a used M body by the way, many owners treasure and rarely use. I bought a Monochrom in the summer 2 years old, 900 actuations, indistinguishable from new with box papers with a £2,500 saving and I trust Leica to support. I did the same with my M9-P acquired from a dealer with 600 actuations in early 2012 it's done over 24,000 now and nothing has been done other than sensor clean (free of charge from Leica in the UK).

 

It's addictive though.......... Some older glass is just lovely as well. 

 

I've stopped acquiring now, some I really should sell, but they are lovely things :-)  If I had to slim down to three lenses they would be  21, 35, 50 I think...

[Bill Livingston]

All good advice from IWC... I wish I had done this when I bought mine.

 

I started off thinking that I would just buy one lens and settled on a 35 'Cron. Then very quickly bought an Elmarit 90 which I converted to six bit. A great lens, but I never use it.

 

After that, I bought a 50 Lux which I adore. 

 

The 35 gets the most use as I can use it in a 'one lens kit' and not carry stuff around with me. The 50 gets the next most use, simply because I love the way it renders. The 90 gets almost no use at all.

 

Looking back, I would have been better to have got a used 35 'Lux, a used 50 'Lux and an SEM 21...

 

I am definitely missing not having a wide angle and that particular lens (SEM 21mm) seems to be a bit of a modern day classic.

[Steve Ricoh]

Stef,

As always, lens choice depends on what you like photographing, but either the 35 or the 50 are good for beginners. I chose the 35mm/f2 based on my attraction to street style and the fact that the DoF scale is nicely spread out on the Summicron.

 

I found the following e-book quite helpful as a recent RF user. 

http://joerivanderkloet.com/category/work-your-leica-m/

[Bohns]

Wow !

A big "THANK YOU !" to all of you ! I was not expecting getting such a lot of answers in such a short time ! Impressive !

 

From what I read here, and from what I discussed by phone also with the manager of a Leica Boutique (Metz), I might end-up in buying an M240 or M-P240, with a Summilux 50 ASPH and the EVF-2. In addition, I found an opportunity to buy a used but very recent Super-Elmar at what I feel is a good price (i.e. 3/4 of the price for a new one). And i will stop there yet. No 1.25x eye-loop, no 21 mm mirror viewfinder (the EVF-2 should be enough for the composition at 21 mm), no longer focal lens.

 

The manager of the Metz Leica boutique proposed me a used M240 with only 1.500 actuations, for also 3/4 of the price for a new one. I am quite tempted, but I was just wondering about what make the differences between M and M-P, i.e. the buffer (I will shoot exclusively DNG or DNG + Jpeg, never Jpeg only), the frame lines lever and the saphir glass screen.

 

New question : is the buffer of the M-P really needed when shooting almost always DNG + fine Jpeg ? I've read everything and the opposite about it...

Regarding the saphir glass and the lever, I feel they are both "nice to have", but probably not essential.

 

Additionally, there is an offer from Leica France to get a 0% loan on either 24 months if the amount is below 10k € or on 36 months if the amount is above. But this is applying only on buying new items (of course). This loan offer is ending on Dec. 31st this year.

 

So, now, my options are becoming :

Option 1 : used Super-Elmar 21 paid directly, new M (preferably M-P) 240 + new EVF-2 + new Summilux 50 ASPH bought with the Leica loan.

Option 2 : used M 240 paid directly, new EVF-2 + new Super-Elmar 21 + new Summilux 50 ASPH bought with the Leica loan

 

Cherry on the cake : it might be possible to get the full kit by Christmas. Not really initially expected.

But - and this is a big BUT - almost no possibility to test before. I will need to rely on the feelings I like when manually focusing and setting my Q today (recalling me my discovery of the photo when I was a kid with my beloved and regretted film Olympus OM1).

 

Regards,

Stef.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Bohns

[Bohns]

BTW, there is a Leica Boutique Store in  Lyon and one in Torino.

 

 

Thank you very much Jaap.

I called several Leica boutique in France today (2 in Paris, the one in Lyon and the one in Metz).

 

I had a very good and constructive discussion with the manager of the Metz's one, indeed very relevant to all the advices I had since yesterday on this forum (get a 50 first, ideally the Summilux ASPH or the Summicron, eventually add the Super-Elmar 21 which is a wonderful landscape and report lens, no 21 mm mirror viewfinder but the EVF-2 instead, and no eye-loop).

 

The other sales persons from the other 3 boutiques I spoke with were more in the mode : "buy everything which is the most expensive (M-P, lux 35, lux 75, the lux 24 is wonderful, etc.), you will not regret it, quality comes at a price, and this is German Quality", like if I was another of these rich men willing to buy some expensive stuff to show it around. I did not like these contacts. But it might have been because I did not speak to the right person (those shops seem to be quite big, which seems not to be the case in Metz).

 

I will anyway try again in Lyon. It would definitely be easier for logistics in case of after sales support, but I would feel being dishonest with the Metz's boutique manager who spent almost an hour with me delivering valid and open advices.

 

Regards,

Stef.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Bohns

[Guest]

... French Alps, in the Grenoble area ...

 

If you're hiking, climbing or skiing in this magnificent region of Mont Blanc and other 4000m high mountains, you'll hardly want to carry more than one M-camera, some batteries and a maximum of three lenses.

Considering the huge differences in height, I would recommend 18mm, 35mm and 90mm.

[jaapv]

Thank you very much Jaap.

I called several Leica boutique in France today (2 in Paris, the one in Lyon and the one in Metz).

 

I had a very good and constructive discussion with the manager of the Metz's one, indeed very relevant to all the advices I had since yesterday on this forum (get a 50 first, ideally the Summilux ASPH or the Summicron, eventually add the Super-Elmar 21 which is a wonderful landscape and report lens, no 21 mm mirror viewfinder but the EVF-2 instead, and no eye-loop).

 

The other sales persons from the other 3 boutiques I spoke with were more in the mode : "buy everything which is the most expensive (M-P, lux 35, lux 75, the lux 24 is wonderful, etc.), you will not regret it, quality comes at a price, and this is German Quality", like if I was another of these rich men willing to buy some expensive stuff to show it around. I did not like these contacts. But it might have been because I did not speak to the right person (those shops seem to be quite big, which seems not to be the case in Metz).

 

I will anyway try again in Lyon. It would definitely be easier for logistics in case of after sales support, but I would feel being dishonest with the Metz's boutique manager who spent almost an hour with me delivering valid and open advices.

 

Regards,

Stef.

Don't be shy to consider used lenses or Zeiss ones.  The Distagon 35/1.4 is IMO preferable over the Summilux 35 FLE - and cheaper. ~The Planar 50 ZM is a serious rival for the Summicron 50 (non-APO)

[lct]

Saintes near Bordeaux is perhaps too far from you but Nicolas Muro could give you good advice, i think. Now to answer (in part) to your queries don't waste your money on new things if you don't need that absolutely. Best example, forget the Leica EVF and find a second hand Olympus, it will be exactly the same EVF for a fraction of the price. I found one for 50 EUR only on e**y. Also consider that a new M should be launched in 2016, so i would not spend too much on a new body now if i were you. YMMV.

[a.noctilux]

Stef,

Like Lct said, you may call Nicolas Muro for good advices for newbie.

 

- I have answered you in summilux.net that second hand Leica and compatibles is common to begin with

- If not for you, you could sell with small lost of money

 

As second thought, for your wildlife photos, if you choose an M 240, think of long lens kit you can use:

- a Macro-Elmar-M 4/90mm is very small and light ( about 1/3 of my Apo-Macro-Elmarit-R 100mm ) a delight in field

- you can consider also, later, Apo-Telyt-R those are long lenses in 180mm, 280mm or longer

the kit may be very heavy to carry around

 

A word about Summilux:

M + 50mm is a very nice kit to carry around and to see if you can live with the M system that is not same as DSLR minus weight.

Summilux Asph. 50 is one of finest lens of the system, but in average use, I can not see much difference with a popular Summicron-M or Elmar-M (if not lack of f:1.4).

 

Arnaud

[Bohns]

Thank you Arnaud. I indeed put an option on the Super-Elmar 21 which is for sale on Summilux.net.

 

I will continue discussing with the Leica Boutiques I've been in touch with to assess the used bodies they could propose, and I already contacted somebody selling an Olympus VF-2 (I just discovered it was compatible with both M and M-P). A great thank you to lct.

 

I might anyway buy the Summilux new. 

 

Stef.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Peter Kilmister]

Stef: Have a look on the Buy and Sell section of this forum. You get security by buying 2nd hand from reputable people.

There is not much that can go wrong with a lens unless it is dropped or used in a rough environment. Take a look ... it costs nothing to look.