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Correct body cap for 1932 Leica II Type D?


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Unless there are references I have not seen, I don't know if camera body caps and lens caps are well documented (styles, date periods), for Leica products from 1925 through the 1950s. The van Hasbroeck "A History ..." book shows many old lens caps on one page, but without date periods or descriptions, and unfortunately in black & white.

For example, what type of body cap, and lens caps (front and rear), would be correct for a 1932 Leica II Type D?

Body caps for prewar cameras are rarely shown in Leica literature, or in collections of original cameras, since cameras usually are shown without the body cap or with lenses mounted.

Have Leica collectors compiled a reasonably accurate, illustrated list, of body and lens caps, showing styles and dates?

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The Leica British Catalogues for 1931 and 1933 do not list any accessory body caps. It would seem that, at that time, these were things that you got with the camera. The 1933 Catalogue lists an ORIFT embossed lens cap under 'small accessories' but does not say what is was made of. I have a black plastic or bakelite lens cap which I received on a nickel Elmar from 1932 which came with a black II Model D from 1932. The word Leica is embossed on it. I also have one of the same caps on a 1 Model A from 1928. I also have some examples of the black paint metal cap on lenses which came with cameras from 1930. I can offer no explanation as to why some lenses came with metal caps and others came with plastic caps. The black plastic or bakelite cap is very similar to the body caps on items 13 and 14 of the Westlicht Catalogue for the Auction of 21st November 2015; a II Model D from 1936 and a III Model F from 1933 , respectively. I think you could assume that that body cap is 'correct' and 'in period' for the II Model D. 

 

One interesting fact, coming out of the 1933 catalogue, is that the chrome II and III models were more expensive on their introduction to the market in 1933, whereas the reverse is the case today.

 

William

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Thank you William for your informative reply, with references to the UK catalogues. I shall review the Westlicht auction pictures to see what body caps are on early 1930s cameras, so I can look for one that matches my 1932 Type D. Auction sales of "original, undisturbed" items may be good references for the correct caps for a 1932 Elmar.

I have seen "bakelite" (possibly plastic?) A36 front lens caps that I assume (from their slightly deco style) were 1940s, maybe even 1930s, in two varieties:

1. speckled-dotted top with raised LEICA script, raised small rounded edge, and smooth sides (pictures attached),

2. same but with ridged side, like the edge of a coin.

I don't know which variety is older; maybe others can comment.

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Both of mine have the ridged top edge. The 1928 item has red/purple felt and the 1932 item has black felt.  The 1928 cap has a narrow plain outer ring on the front between the the 'crinkle' finish and the edge. The 1932 cap does not have this. For illustrations, the 1932 cap is the item on the bottom right on page 146 of Van Hasbroeck's book and the 1928 cap is the one immediately above it. I would not be too concerned about such minor variations in small parts and accessories, however. In the early days, it seems that Leica was more of a 'craft ' business than a 'mass manufacture' one. It was only with the great commercial success of the Leica that the company tended towards the latter. This craft approach is to be seen in items like the early ETRIN case which appeared in a number of different variations. There is also some evidence that a lot depended on what parts were available in the factory on the date of manufacture as well as the style of different craftspersons.

 

William

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Pictures of your (and others') lens and body caps would be useful to see styles and differences. Both sides.

Can knowledgeable owners of prewar Leicas comment on the "bakelite" (possibly plastic) rear lens cap shown here? I believe it is genuine Leica, maybe 1940s-50s. Very good quality and certainly different from cheap Oriental copies that are everywhere.

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  • 1 year later...

I saw this thread on body caps etc. I have an M39 nickel body cap with the small font Germany engraving as the Germany on Leica screw mount bodies. Cap does not have Leica mark. Once again only one I've ever seen. Rest are chrome or bakelite or 3rd world pot metal etc. Nice cap. Will upload image tomorrow

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There are many variations of the 36mm front cap, possibly 12 or more.  The first cap for the UR was attached by a string to the body, a good reminder to cap the lens during winding as the shutter was not yet self-winding.They were not 36mm, but 19 I think. These were reproduced when the UR reproductions were made.

 There are caps of brass, aluminum and plastic or baklite.  Metal caps were flat (early) or raised center (Later) and finished with paint or chrome, or anodized aluminum. Nickel is reported but almost never seen or verified.  There were caps with a much higher raised center to cover the lens when a screw-in filter or close up lens was in place.  The velvet covering varied somewhat in coverage, the full internal cavity (early) or just the inside rim (later).  The color of the velvet has also been reported in burgandy and black. The plastic caps have edge variations as noted in above posts and there are variation in the Leica script.

 

The Viewfinder magazine, Vol. 9 No. 2, 1976 shows an attempt 40 years ago to understand these caps.  As to the date of their availability and demise and any chronological sequencing, that will have to wait for a later post. As noted above, there may have been a "ship whatever is available" approach during some periods.

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I have had a quick look at the Viewfinder article but it is difficult to be conclusive from this. I am not sure that it is possible to be definitive at this stage, 80 to 90 years later. I have quite a variety of front and rear caps for lenses from the early period; say from 1925 to 1935. I recall looking through catalogues from that period and such caps are either not listed or, if they are, they are not described in any great detail. Also Leica was more like a craft company in the early years and there were many variations, not all of which can be explained.

 

I will look again at my collection of caps and early catalogues to see if any discernible pattern emerges.

 

William

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Here's the 39mm nickel body cap. Nice piece. Tough to get workmanship like this now. M

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There are many variations of the 36mm front cap, possibly 12 or more.  The first cap for the UR was attached by a string to the body, a good reminder to cap the lens during winding as the shutter was not yet self-winding.They were not 36mm, but 19 I think. These were reproduced when the UR reproductions were made.

 There are caps of brass, aluminum and plastic or baklite.  Metal caps were flat (early) or raised center (Later) and finished with paint or chrome, or anodized aluminum. Nickel is reported but almost never seen or verified.  There were caps with a much higher raised center to cover the lens when a screw-in filter or close up lens was in place.  The velvet covering varied somewhat in coverage, the full internal cavity (early) or just the inside rim (later).  The color of the velvet has also been reported in burgandy and black. The plastic caps have edge variations as noted in above posts and there are variation in the Leica script.

 

The Viewfinder magazine, Vol. 9 No. 2, 1976 shows an attempt 40 years ago to understand these caps.  As to the date of their availability and demise and any chronological sequencing, that will have to wait for a later post. As noted above, there may have been a "ship whatever is available" approach during some periods.

Please do not mix up the UR Leica that was constructed in 1913-14 and the Leica "O" that dates to 1923-1924. These cameras were a decade apart. There are two or three of the former made by Barnack and maybe 31 of the latter constructed as preproduction examples that lead to the introduction of the Leica 1a the following year, 1925. The UR Leica had a circular sliding door with dimple used to cover the lens, and the Leica "O" had the cap and string connected to the camera body that was punched into the lens opening. I know as I have both cameras, the UR Leica and the Leica "O" and they are quite different in construction and operation.

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I had what I believe was a 1928 IIb, with nickel fittings and I had a Bakelite lens (red lined) and body cap with it.

 

I've always taken these to be correct, although I have heard of similar but slightly later cameras having a Nickel body cap.

Edited by robert_parker
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Thank you, George. I was thinking of the O series and incorrectly referred  to the UR.  I have both reproductions, so I should have checked.

 

This cap photo shows:

 

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Chrome, late A-36 cap, outer ridge makes it easier to remove.

Chrome ORIFT cap for elmar with filter installed.

Black metal ORIFT cap, same application.

Black plastic Summitar front cap, 42mm.

Black plastic body cap.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks Alan. The ORIFT was the only lens cap which can be found in the early Leica Catalogues. I must look out for one as I have a number of the small centre-fitting filters for the early 50mm Elmar. 

 

To Robert's point, I have found that early lenses either come with the bakelite cap or the black lacquer one. It seems to me that both were in use at that time.

 

Caps are as much related to hoods as they are to lenses in some cases.

 

Here are some caps and hoods from my collection. The first point I would make is that there are a number of caps that will fit snugly on a lens hood either in the normal fashion or on the reversed hood but which are not snug on the actual lens itself. In the photo below, the first, somewhat brassed, cap on the left will fit either on the earliest FISON hood with square opening or the second version FISON hood with round opening ( both shown behind), but will not fit snugly on a 50mm/5cm Elmar. The second hood (black) from the left will fit on the Elmar lens but not on the FISON hoods behind. The two caps in the centre are for the 10.5 cm f 6.3 Mountain Elmar and the 7.3cm f1.9 Hektor. These will fit snugly on the reversed hoods, which are shown behind each cap, but not on the lens front; they would fall off if left on the lens. All of the black caps here have red velvet lining on the inside.

 

 

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Finally, second from the right there is a rear cap for an early standardised but uncoupled 135mm Elmar. Sometimes these come with what is described as a 'thin' rear cap. This cap is thin as regards the materials in it, but seems to have the same depth from top to bottom as other caps which I have. Finally, in response to the post by mickjazz, here is a body cap in LTM size, made by Reid and Sigrist for an RAF Reid 1, which seems to have been hewn out of a solid piece of aluminium and then painted crudely with black paint on the front. I have researched this and found that this is how the Reid caps were made. It certainly is the most substantial body cap that I have ever seen.

 

William

Edited by willeica
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Thanks mickjazz. This hood has to be adjusted each time that the lens has been focussed. I was trying to illustrate here that some lens caps were designed for the hood rather than the lens itself. 

 

Does anyone have information on the so-called 'thin' rear lens caps?

 

William

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My 1931 1© standard has a black lacquered cap on its nickel Elmar (no serial) that I think is stamped steel not aluminium. However there is no way of knowing if this was the original cap or not. My 1© has a FODUA rangefinder but of a much earlier date (1924), which is date stamped inside its leather case. 

 

Wilson

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Thank you Willeica and Alan McFall for sharing pictures of less common and rare caps (lens and body). It is useful to understand that some caps are sized to fit a hood rather than a lens. Some points and questions:

1. Is it possible (copyright issue?) to share with us the 1976 Viewfinder article?

2. I don't think the "Germany" marked nickel body cap is Leica-made; it's probably a high quality, generic, post-war cap. Although ... the serrated edge looks the same as other Leica caps, both pre-war and post-war. That body cap is unusual, first I've seen, so that alone makes me think it wasn't made by Leitz - their caps are commonly seen with their cameras.

3. A magnet will quickly identify steel and nickel caps from other metals (aluminum, brass, alloys, etc.).

4. Close examination of the inside of bakelite and metal Leica caps will show useful details (for identifying types, and possibly for dating) such as the :

- felt (full coverage of inside = oldest style, or just inside the rim = later),

- colour of felt,

- type of felt material,

and something nobody else has yet mentioned for probably-1930s bakelite caps:

- small raised product code numbers, on the inside, of "2618" (rear lens cap) and "2619" (front lens cap with outer serrated side, and felt inside rim) and "2620" (body cap). See Pictures Attached.

 

That "numbered" series of bakelite caps are attractive when used with old lenses and bodies. I am not sure the 26xx number was always part of the mold-die used to make them, because I believe I have seen identical bakelite caps without those raised numbers. Can owners of these likely-1930s caps examine theirs and look for numbers, or no numbers, and post pictures?

Note that the small number details of mold-dies can get plugged over time, so it's possible that end-of-production bakelite caps would show only vestigial traces of the original raised numbers.

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Thanks Ironringer.

 

1. All of the editions of Viewfinder are available to members on the LHSA website.

2. You may be right about this body cap. I does, however, look like a very substantial item, just like the Reid body cap.

3. I have not done any magnet testing. Most of my early black caps are either made from brass or steel. I have more painted metal caps than bakelite ones.

4. I have quickly checked 3 bakelite caps and can find no numbers on the inside. They have felt around the edge, which is either red or black. They came respectively with a 1928 Model 1 A with 50mm Elmar, a 1932 II Model D with a nickel 7 O'Clock 5 cm Elmar and a 1932 Nickel Rigid 5cm Summar. Can you say if you have any information on the code numbers on your bakelite caps? In the early 1930s editions, such numbers are not to be found in Leica Catalogues. There are numbers in post war catalogues, usually starting with '14' for accessories.

 

I have looked at the Leica catalogues for 1936 and 1938 this time. I looked at earlier catalogues before; see my post of 26 November 2015 above. The later catalogues list the black metal cap for the 5cm Elmar etc ORVZO, the cap for the Mountain Elmar ORWBO and the cap for the 7.3cm Hektor ORXDO. All of these are black metal caps and are shown in my post above. In addition, a chrome version (more expensive than the black paint) of the ORVZO is listed, as is the ORZHO cap for the Thambar. The 1938 catalogue also lists a chrome version of the ORXDO ( black version is for the 7.3 cm Hektor) which is listed as being for the Xenon. Again the chrome version is more expensive than the black paint version, which might surprise some of today's collectors.

 

I hope that this information helps to fill out the picture.

 

William

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I looked at about 20 black plastic front lens caps. Everyone without a number has the smooth outside edge; and everyone with the 2619 molded into the inside center had the finely ribbed outside edge.  So, which was first, some authors refer to the ribbed style as earlier. The black plastic lens caps for the Summitar , much later( 6 examined) do not have a mold number. That lends some support to the argument that the ribbed style with the number is the earliest.

 

I looked at a 10 black plastic camera body opening covers, again all without numbers on the inside had a similar Leica script, while all those with the 2620 number had a different script.  You may have to look closely at the script differences shown below.  As about, then it is possible that the numbered plastic body covers were earlier.

 

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As far as rear lens caps, I think we can agree that Leitz had little use for rear lens caps until the availablility of interchangeable lenses in 1930.  As the first lenses, prior to the rangefinder coupling, did not require the accomodation of the rangefinder activation cam.  As such they were thinner.  Later it would have been necessary to deepen the cap.  Photo shows two brass with black paint caps, one ,25" and the other .35" deep.  I believe the brass rear caps preceeded the black plastic rear caps.

 

 

 

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