advice on Leica II Type D with matching Elmar?

[ironringer]

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Could collectors and users please offer advice on what I should be careful of when looking for a "5 digit" serial number, Type D camera (first rangefinder model), with a correct period Elmar lens? From review of literature I believe these would date from 1932.

Operation and condition are well established criteria, and can be reasonably evaluated remotely (without seeing the camera & lens), using questions and pictures.

But apart from the typical evaluation criteria for any camera and lens, what other things are useful to learn about a first-year Type D with lens?

For example, what common modifications are important to note, when trying to purchase a "pure, original, unmodified" Type D?

And I believe a correct matching Elmar 5 cm lens should be nickel (not chrome). But would it usually have NO serial number visible on the f-stop front ring? And where (inside) is the serial number marked, on those early Elmars? Is that something a seller can easily check, remotely, for a buyer?

What serial number range of camera would date-match what serial number range of Elmar? For example, would a Type D s/n 80,000 be time-coherent with an Elmar s/n 120,000?

It would be nice to have an original set that was purchased together, in 1932.

Partly because it looks so good in black enamel, even with some wear to brass underneath, I am interested in a first year Type D with a correct, period-matching Elmar, in usable condition (to use occasionally). Experts' guidance will be appreciated.

[zeitz]

Use the third pinned item in this subforum.  That post will send you to a web site that gives the most accurate camera and lens dates available.  When nickel-plated equipment was manufactured, chrome plating had not been invented.  When chrome plating was introduced, nickel plating ended.  If you are a serious collector, you need to get a set of the standard books, such as Lager and Laney.  (Laney's big book also gives the lens and camera serial numbers in a full listing.)  These authors give the litany of the original characteristics.

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[luigi bertolotti]

I join Zeitz' advice : entering in a serious collector's mood about Barnacks is like joining a religious fraternity.... first comes the Bible (bibleS in this case ), then the discussions with brothers in faith...

Edited November 21, 2015 by luigi bertolotti

[sumolux]

Good advice above; but hmmm...I don't think it is so difficult if you don't want to become a devotee? Buying a lot of books just to choose a D for the occasional picture seems overkill (unless you enjoy the research in finding one ?)

 

The numbering of Model D bodies can be found online, and even http://www.summilux.net/numeros/index.php will give you accurate dates on bodies and lenses.

There are many D's in original state to be found; the camera is so simple that there is little one can modify in any case...

Only warning I can give you for a 5 digit (because of the price premium for it) is to check the patina of the controls. A replaced control will have a totally different coloration from the others. They should all be nickel, which has a brownish dull grey tint compared to chrome. The Japanese are very good at re-doing such controls (!)

 

The 1932 lens would also definitely be nickel. If it concerns a 50mm Elmar, there are dozens available online and in stores all over the place.

IF it has s number, it will be on the black ring directly around the lens. However only an expert can date an un-numbered lens; there are many small details to consider. That's when you really need the 'bible school' training.

 

Here in EU I found a Model D in near mint condition (1936) for $325 and found a matching 1936 nickel Elmar 50mm for $75 with no problem; lenses are very low priced and often just 'given away' with the body. The 1932 is a fun idea, something from the very first year of production. However in actuality the later years are often more scarce with far lower production numbers than those of 1932 which was a bonanza year in production of Model D. It is a lovely camera, and its limitations and simplicity are exactly what make it a fun challenge to use.

Edited November 21, 2015 by sumolux

[willeica]

I support the concept of 'bible reading'. I can, however, give you some information and advice based on my 3 1932 black Leica II Model Ds, all with Serial Numbers (SNs) in the 9x,xxx range. As I recount in my article posted on this forum below, my first screwmount purchase was one of those cameras. I bought it in a camera shop in Dublin, which was not a vintage dealer shop. I soon realised that the replacement wind on and rewind knobs in chrome were not original as neither were the chrome strap eyes. Also not appropriate was the 1938 chrome Summar (the start of my Summar collection). The lens was superb and, after a CLA for the camera, the combination takes superb pictures. I love the camera and would never part with it. Buying a vintage camera is not only about getting a camera correct, just as it might have been in 1932!

 

That being said and as the 'collector disease' took hold, I just had to have a 'correct' black and nickel II Model D. I managed to purchase at auction a black II Model D with nickel fittings and a nickel 7 O clock Elmar with a 6 digit SN which indicates that it was made before 1933 according to the 'Blue Book' and was thus appropriate to the period of the camera. I would point out that Van Hasbroeck lists 22 variants of the 5cm f 3.5 Elmar. These include numbered, partially numbered with 3 and 5 digit compatibility with the camera numbers, and unnumbered variants, as well as nickel and chrome finishes, 11 and 7 O clock infinity catches and variations in the catch knobs such as 'bell push' etc. You could spend a lifetime studying and collecting Elmar variants. If that is just too confusing, you could narrow your search to any nickel Elmar which is either unnumbered or numbered below the SN 156001, which is the opening number for 1933 according to the blue book.

 

My third black 11 Model D from 1932 has a nickel 5cm Hektor with a 7 O clock infinity catch and an SN which indicates manufacture before 1933. The Hektor is just as appropriate as the Elmar but they are more rare and thus more expensive.

 

As a postscript, I also have a chrome II Model D from 1935 which I bought because it contained the engraving of a London dealer together with the dealers name on the matching case. The interesting point about chrome II model Ds is that they usually sell for less than the black and nickel models even though the chrome models are more rare. This must be put down to 'perceived desirability'.

 

I hope that you find the above information, which is based on my own experience, to be useful in your search for a II Model D and lens combination.

 

William

[sumolux]

Hello William,

I have never seen a chrome II model D before, never knew they were made actually, but I am certainly no expert.

Could you perhaps post a shot of it? I would love to see one in the flesh.

[willeica]

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Leica made 15,573 examples of the chrome version of the II Model D as against  36,936 of the black version. There is a photo of one on page 23 of the 8th edition of the 'Blue Book'. I will organise a photo of my example and the case that came with it and post it later.

 

William

[willeica]

Here are the photos of Leica II Model D in chrome as discussed.

 

There is a reason for also showing the case, which is explained below.

 

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Here is the engraving on the base.

 

 

Here is the case with the retailer's name inside.

 

 

Finally, here are exposure tables with the retailer's name and also some pages of 'First Principles for Leica Users' torn from a book; both items came with the case. I believe I have the full book somewhere.

 

 

One reason why I bought this set was because I already had a Leica 1 Model A from 1929 with the Sinclair engraving showing the address as Charing Cross. The shop did not move, however, as sometime around 1929 or 1930 the Charing Cross address was changed to a Whitehall address.  There is a photo of a Sinclair engraving with the Charing Cross address on page 39 of the 2005 edition of Dennis Laney's Leica Collector's Guide. I would dearly love to get a Leica with the Dublin dealer's engraving on the same page.

 

William

 

 

 

[willeica]

I've just noticed that I said in an earlier post that this chrome camera (photos above) came from 1935, whereas checking the serial number again, it seems that it was manufactured in 1938. Apologies for the error.

 

 

William

[jerzy]

an early II shall have 11 oclock Elmar (or Hektor), large speed dial, lavatory seat, screw at the backside and small pin for bottom cover. This is what can be seen without looking into inside of camera.

Camera is still waiting to be cleaned :-)

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[willeica]

Thanks Jerzy. I note that the 11 O Clock Elmar shown in your photo has  a serial number. Other than fixed Elmars on the 1 Model A, I have 3 other early nickel interchangeable Elmars with no serial number. Two of these are 11 O Clock models from 1 Model Cs from 1930 and 1931 respectively. These carry a 0 on the back to indicate that they may be used with a standardised Leica.

 

I also have a 7 O Clock nickel Elmar with no serial number. It does not carry a 0 on the back and it has a shorter barrel than the 11 O Clock variants. This came with a 1930 1 Model A which had been upgraded to a Standard at an unknown date. I mentioned earlier that there are quite a number of variants of the Elmar and trying to track these chronologically is quite difficult.

 

My own view is that, in the early days of interchangeable lenses, Leica had lenses already made without serial numbers, which they then fitted to cameras as they were made. From the example provided by Jerzy, it seems that some 11 O Clock Elmars had serial numbers added perhaps with the introduction of the II Model D. The 7 O Clock Elmar with no serial number, with a shorter barrel and no serial number or 0 on the back is a bit of a mystery. Perhaps it was adapted from an earlier model at the same time that the 1 Model A was converted to a Standard. I might add that the 7 O Clock Elmar has the later domed type infinity catch which I have on numbered examples, whereas the 11 O Clock models have the earlier flat top type knob. Jerzy's example has what I believe is called the 'bell push' infinity catch knob. I would appreciate any information anyone might have in respect of the 7 O Clock model with no serial number. Does anyone else have an example?

 

I did say, in an earlier post, that you could make a life's work out of studying the Elmar and its many variants and serial number combinations.

 

William 

[jc_braconi]

II black and chrome:

 

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[jerzy]

William,

i believe, however do not have 100% proof, that every standardized Elmar which was produced originally as such shall have serial number. Many lenses were converted together with the camera, therefore you may find unnumbered 11 o'clock which could belong to I converted to III. With introduction of model III Leica changed lenses to 7 o'clock, not to hit the slow speed dial in infinity position. I have as well unnumbered red scale, again, result of conversion.

some time ago I made inventory on roughly 50 Elmars noting their main features, if you are interested I may share it with you next week.

[willeica]

Thanks Jerzy. I must do the same. I have much less than 50 Elmars, maybe between 15 and 20. Van Hasbroeck has attempted to 'codify' the 50 Elmar into 22 variants. If you want to see my unnumbered 7 O'Clock short 5cm nickel Elmar, have a look at Catalogue Number 16 item sold at Westlicht on 25 March 2014. I would be very interested to hear if you have the same variant.

 

William

[ironringer]

Gentlemen, thank you for your excellent guidance. I will review my reference books (I have some of them you recommended) and your suggestions, while looking for a first-year Type D with correct period Elmar.

[jerzy]

With pleasure ironringer.

William, do you mean IC covered to standard? Btw. Conversion must have been done around mid 30ties, speed dial is the one which have been introduced in III. From the foto it is hard to say how short the barrel is.

we are drifting from the original topic, we might take further discussion offline not to bore other forum members.

Few years ago I noticed that some Elmars, in particular red scale, have the barrel significantly shorter. In my naivety, my knowledge about optics does not go beyond single glass lenses, I was trying to find a dependence between focal length group stamped on the rear side of infinity knob and length of the barrel. Wrong trap, as I was thought later by the experts. The result is that I still do not know what determines barrel length but I have done inventory on Elmars :-)

[jerzy]

...adding sample fotos showing variations in barrel lenght. Leftmost is red scale, unnumbered, middle one is regular red scale, rightmost is nickel, numbered

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[willeica]

No, it was a Leica 1 Model A from 1930, as the Serial Number 23862 indicates. 7 O'Clock mounts do not appear to be marked with a zero as they are all interchangeable anyway. My theory is that the original lens barrel from the 1 Model A from 1930 was matched with a later 7 O'Clock mount at the conversion to Standard stage, thus giving the lens its characteristics. I agree that we should take our discussion of the complexities of Elmar numbering and variants offline.

 

For ironringer, I suggest that you should look for an interchangeable nickel Elmar or Hektor with a serial number below 156001. That would mean that the lens has been manufactured in 1932 or earlier. Best of luck with your search.

 

William

[jc_braconi]

the smallest number I have, have also the same but unumbered

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[ironringer]

Using good advice from you all, I bought a nice condition (used but not abused), original, 1932 Type D (camera #93 thousand, nickel Elmar #152 thousand). After a checkup and service stop at a veteran Leica technician (Youxin Ye) near Boston, it will be a fine collectible that I can use occasionally.

While it is nowhere near the minty condition of Jerzy's museum-quality example (wow!), mine has a beautiful black finish with some brassing wear, just right for an 80+ year old camera.

The seller (a veteran Leicaman) bought it from the family of the original owner. So I know its provenance, which makes it more special for me.

Thank you again for your guidance. I will post pictures after I have it in my hands.