Summilux-SL 50 MM F/1,4 ASPH

[LD_50]

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Yes, but the flange distance of the SL is shorter then the M. It doesn't have anything to do with bayonet size.

Also the 50 Summilux-M is small. And good. The best for a VERY long time. And you're telling me that they cannot add an AF motor and keep the size down. Heck add a techart adapter and you'll have your AF and it'll still be smaller and better then all the other AF 50mm lenses on the market.

I agree the Summilux-M is small and good. It also costs about as much as the Summilux-SL without the AF and weather sealing. Leica very well may consider the Summilux-SL a better performer on top of that. If the goal of the Summilux-SL had been to make it as small as an M-mount lens, it very well may have been possible but the trade offs would be the same as every other lens-maker encounters. If nothing else the price would be substantially higher.

 

I did read your comment on digital corrections in the files from the Summilux-SL so I'll have to wait to see tests or shoot it myself to determine if it's any better than my Summilux-M.

 

The real question to be answered is why is Leica expected to produce smaller AF lenses than any other FF lens manufacturer? Why would we expect them to? At what price? With what level of performance?

 

There are a lot of options available (including M-mount with Techart adapter as mentioned). Leica is offering one many can choose not to buy.

Edited September 30, 2016 by LD_50

[MRJohn]

Interesting that it did not seem possible for Leica to lock an OIS on demand (with electronic magnets or something like this), so the user can decide when to use it and when not. I probably would prefer to have the functionality - at times. - It's nice to see a 50 mm from Leica which looks as it will dwarf the Noct and make it a humble and discreet option 

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[adamdewilde]

I agree the Summilux-M is small and good. It also costs about as much as the Summilux-SL without the AF and weather sealing. Leica very well may consider the Summilux-SL a better performer on top of that. If the goal of the Summilux-SL had been to make it as small as an M-mount lens, it very well may have been possible but the trade offs would be the same as every other lens-maker encounters. If nothing else the price would be substantially higher.

 

I did read your comment on digital corrections in the files from the Summilux-SL so I'll have to wait to see tests or shoot it myself to determine if it's any better than my Summilux-M.

 

The real question to be answered is why is Leica expected to produce smaller AF lenses than any other FF lens manufacturer? Why would we expect them to? At what price? With what level of performance?

 

There are a lot of options available (including M-mount with Techart adapter as mentioned). Leica is offering one many can choose not to buy.

 

 

 

I think that's where you are mistaking my intentions when I bring up size.

I don't care that it's big. What I care about is WHY has big become the compromise. It's a compromise to what? To keep costs down? To gain unparalleled image quality? Seems that the size does not equal a benefit to us the users in this instance. It seems to me like it's to keep costs down for Leica, and yet we still pay a premium. That was my original point.

 

And before anyone jumps in and says they don't see big size as a compromise.. Come on, it's medium format big, it's stupid big. For Sigma I can't complain since $700 art lens big makes sense. And from what I've seen there is no reason for the size other then cheap and easy to build. I'm actually starting to wondering if it's a wider lens and they're using the sweet spot. I wouldn't put it past Leica to do that level of funny business after owning the Q and 24-90 SL. 

 

Anyway, I'm quite hopeful for the Summicrons. Despite D.farkas' interview reading like one big piece of marketing BS (not to down d.farkas, he's doing a great job getting us information since Leica is a communications black hole aside from the Chairman shooting his mouth off about companies dying and Apple not wanting to be his friend). I get the feeling that Karbe basically wants to say "Hey guys all the other SL lenses aren't made by me, so don't judge me based on what you've seen thus far. These Summicrons are my legacy, I've made sure nobody at Leica is dicking me around. That's why you're only getting 3, as that's all I could negotiate for all of you"

Now I'm just going to hope and pray that I'm good at reading between the lines. As I do genuinely love the 50APO and 75APO. Even though both lenses can be a big pain in the ass to use in certain lighting conditions (Taking a few steps to avoid stray light is a compromise I'm gladly willing to make for the rendering/IQ/Colors/ContrastLVL/ect).

 

 

Anyway, I'm a lot less forgiving of Leica these days. But it's not my annoyance with the management that has me saying these things in this topic. I've always been critical of their products. But one should be when paying so much. And yet a lot of people on here will happily fight about how great lens X is, and if they believe it's so great then good for them. But I expect more for my money and frankly I believe Leica has the ability to do better then what they've been doing lately.

[steppenw0lf]

I can clearly see that you are frustrated regards Leica. I was too, when they gave up the R system.

But this is no reason to mix technical discussion with personal feelings. I find this "crusade" in a way ridiculous and would rather discuss the technical detail (the little we know right now) and  not which person you find credible or not. And what you expect for your money is your concern and not extremely important for the rest of the readers.

If you would like to discuss the Leica business and their attitude, why not open a separate thread.

 

To me it looks as if we get a lot more than only 3 primes - look at the roadmap, it is clearly indicated. There are altogether 12 slots. And I am glad that Leica or Mr. Karbe or whoever decided for the Summicrons instead of the Summiluxes - that was maybe a difficult decision regarding the Otus competition.

I could also imagine that after a while - if demand is strong enough - the Summiluxes will be delivered in a second phase (similar to the M Summiluxes, like the M 28, that came many years later than the M 28 Summicron).

But I do not know it, and you probably also not. Even though you constantly make hints about a friend that gave you access to undicsclosed 1.4/50 photos.

 

I would like to encourage Leica to give out more information about their future products, and also to use their website for providing more images of the planned products. On Mr. Farkas shop website I can see the new Summilux 50 in all its glory (even with hood), while on the Leica site the information (the images/photos) is much more scarce. This is a bit clumsy, Leica.  

 

And about you being forgiving or not. I am not forgiving that you keep on rambling about your money and your feelings. Think of the feelings of others and how annoying this is after a while.  

Let Leica do their job, and do yours, unless you think your job is to continue this crusade ad nauseam.

Edited October 1, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[mmradman]

>>>snip<<<

 

And before anyone jumps in and says they don't see big size as a compromise.. Come on, it's medium format big, it's stupid big. For Sigma I can't complain since $700 art lens big makes sense. And from what I've seen there is no reason for the size other then cheap and easy to build. I'm actually starting to wondering if it's a wider lens and they're using the sweet spot. I wouldn't put it past Leica to do that level of funny business after owning the Q and 24-90 SL. 

 

>>>snip<<<

Agree with you. AF motor & extra seals require do space in lens barrel but common 82mm filter diameter, any camera dealer will tell you that there is money to be made on lens filters.

 

I am not an expert on optical design but sample pictures taken with Summilux SL 50mm on D Farkas Photokina post exhibit onion rings in out of focus blobs of light - i think this is telltale sign of mould pressed aspherical lens elements, similar to other run of the mill optics, maybe this is only for trade fare samples ;-)

[thighslapper]

 

I am not an expert on optical design but sample pictures taken with Summilux SL 50mm on D Farkas Photokina post exhibit onion rings in out of focus blobs of light - i think this is telltale sign of mould pressed aspherical lens elements, similar to other run of the mill optics, maybe this is only for trade fare samples ;-)

 

..... errrr .... I thought this was the current common manufacturing process ...... which if I recall was pioneered by Leica instead of the previous custom grinding/polishing which was time consuming, expensive and less accurate .....

[adamdewilde]

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I can clearly see that you are frustrated regards Leica. I was too, when they gave up the R system.

But this is no reason to mix technical discussion with personal feelings. I find this "crusade" in a way ridiculous and would rather discuss the technical detail (the little we know right now) and  not which person you find credible or not. And what you expect for your money is your concern and not extremely important for the rest of the readers.

If you would like to discuss the Leica business and their attitude, why not open a separate thread.

 

To me it looks as if we get a lot more than only 3 primes - look at the roadmap, it is clearly indicated. There are altogether 12 slots. And I am glad that Leica or Mr. Karbe or whoever decided for the Summicrons instead of the Summiluxes - that was maybe a difficult decision regarding the Otus competition.

I could also imagine that after a while - if demand is strong enough - the Summiluxes will be delivered in a second phase (similar to the M Summiluxes, like the M 28, that came many years later than the M 28 Summicron).

But I do not know it, and you probably also not. Even though you constantly make hints about a friend that gave you access to undicsclosed 1.4/50 photos.

 

I would like to encourage Leica to give out more information about their future products, and also to use their website for providing more images of the planned products. On Mr. Farkas shop website I can see the new Summilux 50 in all its glory (even with hood), while on the Leica site the information (the images/photos) is much more scarce. This is a bit clumsy, Leica.  

 

And about you being forgiving or not. I am not forgiving that you keep on rambling about your money and your feelings. Think of the feelings of others and how annoying this is after a while.  

Let Leica do their job, and do yours, unless you think your job is to continue this crusade ad nauseam.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you even read the article? Did you even read my post? Doesn't seem like it from your response. 

 

Bottom line, 50Lux has distortion correction, and it's more then I'd like in a large sized $5,000 prime lens. How come that shouldn't be a part of the technical discussion?

Edited October 1, 2016 by adamdewilde

[jrp]

Erwin Puts puts different spin on the sharpness falloff characteristics of Karbe lenses. Rather than that being a design objective, it is a product of the desire to ramp sharpness.

 

http://www.imx.nl/photo/blog/files/d0fca6e250c7d2f2e8020fc639f831a5-53.html

 

There are some comparisons of the 75mm APO summincron and the Summilux that illustrate the different approaches. Similarly the 58mm NIKKOR is less than razor sharp wide open and has very smooth transitions from sharpness to blur, which contributes to the attractiveness of the images that it produces. The new 105mm f1.4 NIKKOR seems to have gone for more sharpness wide open, leaving the bokeh generation to the focal length.

 

Many ways to skin a

[tom0511]

I prefer the smoother transition and if it would be the "price" I would accept a little less sharpness.

[adamdewilde]

I prefer the smoother transition and if it would be the "price" I would accept a little less sharpness.

 

 

Yes, I also think uber sharp lenses are not worth the tradeoffs. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by adamdewilde

[mmradman]

..... errrr .... I thought this was the current common manufacturing process ...... which if I recall was pioneered by Leica instead of the previous custom grinding/polishing which was time consuming, expensive and less accurate .....

You are right, and your point is?

[LocalHero1953]

Well that's sorted.

It's a crap lens, made on the cheap, fudged with in-camera corrections, and sold for megabucks.

Anyone care to review the Summicrons in advance as well?

[dgktkr]

Agree with you. AF motor & extra seals require do space in lens barrel but common 82mm filter diameter, any camera dealer will tell you that there is money to be made on lens filters.

 

I am not an expert on optical design but sample pictures taken with Summilux SL 50mm on D Farkas Photokina post exhibit onion rings in out of focus blobs of light - i think this is telltale sign of mould pressed aspherical lens elements, similar to other run of the mill optics, maybe this is only for trade fare samples ;-)

 

 

Aren't the noncircular out of focus highlights due to blocking of the light by various metal parts of the lens (aperture + inner diameter of mounts for the individual elements)? Check out http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/52126/what-is-the-cause-of-this-non-uniform-bokeh-effect for instance.

 

dgktkr

Edited October 1, 2016 by dgktkr

[mmradman]

Aren't the noncircular out of focus highlights due to blocking of the light by various metal parts of the lens (aperture + inner diameter of mounts for the individual elements)? Check out http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/52126/what-is-the-cause-of-this-non-uniform-bokeh-effect for instance.

 

dgktkr

I already stated I am not an expert but you pressed me; you are right about shape of out of focus highlights, it seems it is related to geometry of the optical tube containing lens elements. My earlier point was about onion rings, apparently back in 2014 Panasonic demonstrated aspherical lens design free of rings - something you would expect in "best up to date".

 

Simple google search ononion rings turns this...

 

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/05/02/the-end-of-onion-ring-bokeh-panasonic-beats-the-curse-of-aspheric-lenses

[ZHNL]

I already stated I am not an expert but you pressed me; you are right about shape of out of focus highlights, it seems it is related to geometry of the optical tube containing lens elements. My earlier point was about onion rings, apparently back in 2014 Panasonic demonstrated aspherical lens design free of rings - something you would expect in "best up to date".

 

Simple google search ononion rings turns this...

 

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/05/02/the-end-of-onion-ring-bokeh-panasonic-beats-the-curse-of-aspheric-lenses

The new Sony GM lens also don't have those ugly onion ring but 8K summicron S still have it. I know it because I have the lens. TBH, I'd like to see something like 85GM come out of Leica, (sharp and smooth) then talk about redefine something or if anything at all.

[ZHNL]

Well that's sorted.

It's a crap lens, made on the cheap, fudged with in-camera corrections, and sold for megabucks.

Anyone care to review the Summicrons in advance as well?

Actually, I'd very much interested in comparison between this 50lux and sigma Art lens, about the same size weight and sharp start wide open. No, sigma is not crap lens and not made cheap but certainly no in camera correction. I appreciate any info released regarding the new lens since we don't get it from Leica, not even a MTF. Let fact do the talk such as in camera correction.

 

Our Leica pride of small high quality lens is gone now? Start from when Leica fans become so tolerant about size? What is the point of have mirror less system with extreme short flange distance but lens weight and size twice as canikon's lens? I thought we all very proud of our M lens can achieve better performance with smaller size.

Leica S at least have a reason to be big with niche position it hold, though the system seems get forgotten by Leica for the time being stay with 36M 7 years now? Yeh, mirror less is the future, at least Leica think it is. Good luck!

[jrp]

 Start from when Leica fans become so tolerant about size?

 

 

From never.   I am not going to buy one, no matter what the MTFs say.  A 50mm lens would serve no useful purpose for me at that bulk.  Fortunately my resolve is not being tested as the release date has been put back to 2017. 105mm f1.4 for my neglected Nikon system? Maybe.  

[ZHNL]

Erwin Puts puts different spin on the sharpness falloff characteristics of Karbe lenses. Rather than that being a design objective, it is a product of the desire to ramp sharpness.

 

http://www.imx.nl/photo/blog/files/d0fca6e250c7d2f2e8020fc639f831a5-53.html

 

There are some comparisons of the 75mm APO summincron and the Summilux that illustrate the different approaches. Similarly the 58mm NIKKOR is less than razor sharp wide open and has very smooth transitions from sharpness to blur, which contributes to the attractiveness of the images that it produces. The new 105mm f1.4 NIKKOR seems to have gone for more sharpness wide open, leaving the bokeh generation to the focal length.

 

Many ways to skin a

That is a good information from the link. Thanks. I can echo the S glass at least. To achieve its performance at wide aperture, I need use manual focus. The AF system is simply not good enough to the accuracy requirement lens need. I hope SL's AF is good enough for fast glass. So far, only test is f2.8 or smaller zoom. Time will tell.

[thighslapper]

When the 24-90 was first shown there were endless moans about the size, weight, limited apertures, in camera firmware corrections of distortions and disbelief at Leica's comments on the performance.

 

When the 90-280 was first shown a selection of similar observations were made.

 

Show me the subsequent 'SL 24-90 is crap' or the 'SL 90-280 is crap' threads complaining about the poor image quality and useless design.......

 

Almost everyone that actually OWNS one grudgingly admits that these are very fine lenses and in use are not a big and cumbersome as first assumed. 

 

I would humbly suggest those posting here actually use the SL 50/2 extensively before consigning it to the waste bin and heaping scorn on the comments by Mr Karbe ..... who is a designer and optics expert and not a salesman for Leica. 

 

I don't pass comment on lenses I don't own or have never used ....... and then based on my observations under NORMAL use  ...... or those with a track record of impartial assessment.

 

Buying Leica gear is not compulsory, but carping and criticising when you have never even touched something has no value as far as I'm concerned. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by thighslapper

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[ZHNL]

When the 24-90 was first shown there were endless moans about the size, weight, limited apertures, in camera firmware corrections of distortions and disbelief at Leica's comments on the performance.

 

When the 90-280 was first shown a selection of similar observations were made.

 

Show me the subsequent 'SL 24-90 is crap' or the 'SL 90-280 is crap' threads complaining about the poor image quality and useless design.......

 

Almost everyone that actually OWNS one grudgingly admits that these are very fine lenses and in use are not a big and cumbersome as first assumed.

 

I would humbly suggest those posting here actually use the SL 50/2 extensively before consigning it to the waste bin and heaping scorn on the comments by Mr Karbe ..... who is a designer and optics expert and not a salesman for Leica.

 

I don't pass comment on lenses I don't own or have never used ....... and then based on my observations under NORMAL use ...... or those with a track record of impartial assessment.

 

Buying Leica gear is not compulsory, but carping and criticising when you have never even touched something has no value as far as I'm concerned.

So you are giving complement to Panasonic designed 90-280 lens? Should that credit be given to Panasonic?

 

Again, nobody really say anything about 50lux SL yet other than point out its size, mechanic clip of bokeh highlight and onion ring, maybe in camera correction etc... But those are all base on the information a few image shown so far. At least that is some useful facts.

 

The problem I have mainly is company cultural wise, I personally don't like BS talk before anything real show. And a bunch of cheerleaders exciting about everything without even see any meat yet. It is not the Leica I am farmilar with. At least not again and again, S, T, x-vario etc...It is not lady's purse business. Fashion in and fashion out (thinking about S). That feeling sucks.