Likaleica Posted October 28, 2015 Share #1 Posted October 28, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've searched the forum but haven't found an answer. It looks to me like two lenses have identical elements, but the barrel is different to accommodate the different formats. I've checked the technical brochures for both, including the mtf curves. I don't see any difference, other than close focus distance, and I'm wondering if anyone has any opinion regarding any differences between the two. I have a 75 M cron and I know about the 80 R lux, so I'm not looking for alternative lenses. My question specifically is about the 90 apo. Thanks for your input. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 Hi Likaleica, Take a look here R vs M 90mm apo-summicron. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Leicaiste Posted October 28, 2015 Share #2 Posted October 28, 2015 I've searched the forum but haven't found an answer. It looks to me like two lenses have identical elements, but the barrel is different to accommodate the different formats. I've checked the technical brochures for both, including the mtf curves. I don't see any difference, other than close focus distance, and I'm wondering if anyone has any opinion regarding any differences between the two. I have a 75 M cron and I know about the 80 R lux, so I'm not looking for alternative lenses. My question specifically is about the 90 apo. Thanks for your input. I have both. Same quality but the R is easier to focus on a R than the M on an M. On a SL, other than at close distance obviously, the results should be the same. The M was more difficult to industrialize. They had to move it from Canada to Solms and still it was not easy to solve. My M had to be replaced by Leica. The R will request a second adapter on the SL. Anyway on the SL I know that I will prefer the R for handling and accessories availability reasons : aperture ring on the back, rubber focusing ring, closer distance, Apo-Extender 2x, Macro-Adapter etc. But if my backup camera is an M, I will take the M. Like the Apo 75/2, both Apo 90/2 are a bit to sharp for portrait sometimes. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likaleica Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted October 28, 2015 Perfect. Thanks for the information. I notice that used R 90's sell for quite a bit more money than the M 90's, I guess due to their rarity. I can see where the R would be better ergonomically. Thanks again. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted December 26, 2015 Share #4 Posted December 26, 2015 I check them both on the SL. Other than what was mentioned before : The R has a 60mm filter and the M 55mm. The R has 8 aperture blades and the M has 11, but strangely enough, the apertures on the R are rounder, except at f/16. You ou can block the sliding lens hood on the R, not on the M. The minimum focusing distance is 0,7 m on the R and 1 m on the M. Equiped with the R-M adapter, the R is 1 mm longer than the M. On the SL, the 6 Bit M is immediately detected as a 90/2 Apo. With the R lens, you have to search for it in the menu. I have selected a direct access to the lenses list on the top right button. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likaleica Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share #5 Posted December 26, 2015 Wow. Above and beyond! Thanks. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 26, 2015 Share #6 Posted December 26, 2015 I have the APO 90/2 in an R ROM mount. I bought it about a month ago. They have indeed gotten rare on E-Bay, and the ones remaining are priced for collectors. One thing to note is that the M 90 focuses from infinity to 1 m in half a barrel rotation, while the R model takes a full rotation to get to 0.7 m. Neither has the one-finger tab. This makes the R lens more precise but a bit slower in use. scott 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 26, 2015 Share #7 Posted December 26, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I have the pre-APO Summicron-R 90mm. It's much more reasonably priced than the APO model. It has, to me, a more charactered drawing behavior (a bit softer wide open with beautiful bokeh, nearly indistinguishable from the APO at f/8). Infinity to closest focus (0.6m) is about 300 degrees turn of the focusing ring. This is one of my favorite lenses. Edited December 26, 2015 by ramarren 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted December 27, 2015 Share #8 Posted December 27, 2015 I have the APO 90/2 in an R ROM mount. I bought it about a month ago. They have indeed gotten rare on E-Bay, and the ones remaining are priced for collectors. One thing to note is that the M 90 focuses from infinity to 1 m in half a barrel rotation, while the R model takes a full rotation to get to 0.7 m. Neither has the one-finger tab. This makes the R lens more precise but a bit slower in use. On the APO 90/2 R it's also half a barrel rotation from infinity to 1 m, the rest of the rotation is to go from 1m to 0,70 m. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted December 27, 2015 Share #9 Posted December 27, 2015 Three pictures à f/2 : 1 - Apo-Summicron R coded as Apo-Summicron R 2 - Apo-Summicron R coded as Summicron R 2 - Apo-Summicron M coded as Apo-Summicron M Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/252230-r-vs-m-90mm-apo-summicron/?do=findComment&comment=2956712'>More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted December 27, 2015 Share #10 Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) If the future R-SL adapter can read the R lenses ROM, I hope this will be corrected in a future firmware update. Btw, the 6 bit coded Apo-Summicron M, being automatically detected by the SL when used with the Leica M-SL (T) adapter, cannot be coded as another lens. Edited December 27, 2015 by Leicaiste 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferdinand Posted December 27, 2015 Share #11 Posted December 27, 2015 If the future R-SL adapter can read the R lenses ROM, I hope this will be corrected in a future firmware update. Btw, the 6 bit coded Apo-Summicron M, being automatically detected by the SL when used with the Leica M-SL (T) adapter, cannot be coded as another lens. It should be already corrected with the selected lens in the SL menu Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted December 27, 2015 Share #12 Posted December 27, 2015 It should be already corrected with the selected lens in the SL menu It should but it is obviously not. What is strange is that the M and R 90 Apo are identical optically and still Leica put different corrections in the SL. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 27, 2015 Share #13 Posted December 27, 2015 Three pictures à f/2 : 1 - Apo-Summicron R coded as Apo-Summicron R 2 - Apo-Summicron R coded as Summicron R 2 - Apo-Summicron M coded as Apo-Summicron M Go with setting 2 for now. The lens profile for the APO-Summicron-R is messed up quite badly (it darkens the center of the frame at higher aperture numbers as well as surrounding the frame with a lightened ring), but the nearest case works fine. I reported this to Leica about the time that firmware 1.2 was issued, and hope we will see it fixed for all 5 affected R lenses in the near future. They should be embarrassed, as all the affected lenses are ones with big reputations. scott 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferdinand Posted December 27, 2015 Share #14 Posted December 27, 2015 It should but it is obviously not. What is strange is that the M and R 90 Apo are identical optically and still Leica put different corrections in the SL. When I tried the SL with R Lenses I realized, that even the lens profiles in Lightroom doesn't work for R lenses. With other cameras and R lenses the corrections are active in Lightroom. Strange, strange, strange ...... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 27, 2015 Share #15 Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) I don't want to belabor this, since it should get fixed soon at least to a reasonable level, but here is what the profiles do to the APO-Elmarit-R 100, at f/2.8 and at f/5.6. I shot through a diffuser plate in the general direction of a white wall so the input is just uniform white light, and the image should be uniform as well. ISO 400, exposure compensation +1, A mode, lens focused at infinity. I click balanced the center of each frame to neutral. With no profile and f/2.8, the center of the frame had RGB levels 148, 148, 147. The left hand edge of the frame was down to 116, 115,116 and the lower left corner registered 96,96,98. Using the 90-Elmarit-R profile, the center came out the same, the left edge increased by about 3% to 119, 119, 121, and the corner increased by about 6% to 102, 103, 104. But with the APO-Elmarit-R 100 profile, the left edge increased to 158, 157, 159! You see by just looking at it that this is not right: L1000901 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr At f/5.6, vignetting is much less. With no profile, the left edge is down only to 136,136,139, and the lower left corner down to 125,126,127. Applying the milder 90/2.8 profile leaves these values unchanged. But not the APO-100/2.8 profile. It darkens the center and lightens the edges: L1000900 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr With this kind of measurement I can see what is going on to an accuracy of perhaps 1/3 EV, but Leica undoubtedly has their own standard test setup that can be connected directly to something that generates the parameters for lens profiles. They also have a pathway to generate the parameters in the DNG files that instruct your raw file development software to correct for any distortion. I hope they will find time to revisit these profiles in coming firmware releases. scott Edited December 27, 2015 by scott kirkpatrick 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 27, 2015 Share #16 Posted December 27, 2015 What is strange is that the M and R 90 Apo are identical optically and still Leica put different corrections in the SL. Yes, isn't it? It suggests that Leica doesn't write firmware with the care and thoroughness that they devote to mechanical and optical engineering. With the M8 and M9, firmware fixes were the last things to be caught. My guess is that this is the result of past efforts to subcontract this work, and the fact that these kind of folks are relatively new to the Leica community. scott 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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