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Quality is good, but speed is more important.


flyalf

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From http://overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601.html.

 

I find it a well written and informative history lesson. I also agree on the observation made by Thorstein as seen from pros "Quality is good, but speed is more important.l". Imo this is THE weakness of the digital Ms. Their slow and sluggish compared to SLRs. The start-up time allows the photographer to miss the decisive moments. The response time from pressing the shutter until capturing is behind DSLRS even though it ought to be shorter. And so on with regards to buffer and similar.

 

So this raise two absolute critical questions; will Leica improve the M, and will Leica improve this on coming SL? Perhaps Q can point to some answers. Is the start-up time noticeable by user. If so its not good enough, and Leica will have to improve.

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From http://overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601.html.

 

I find it a well written and informative history lesson. I also agree on the observation made by Thorstein as seen from pros "Quality is good, but speed is more important.l". Imo this is THE weakness of the digital Ms. Their slow and sluggish compared to SLRs. The start-up time allows the photographer to miss the decisive moments. The response time from pressing the shutter until capturing is behind DSLRS even though it ought to be shorter. And so on with regards to buffer and similar.

 

Is it possible you've still not got round to formatting your SD card with SDFormatter?  I have Canon pro DSLRs and M240s and I have no problems with start up time since using this strategy.  When I was testing the M240 I was shocked by the startup time, but since finding this fix I've had no problems.  I'd suggest you try it before giving up on the M  ;)

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I've never had a problem. By the time I see something I want to photograph it takes me a lot longer to get the camera to my eye than it does to switch it on (one click while it is being shifted to eye level).

 

Please be realistic:

If you walk around with the camera stuck to your eye then start up time might seem long ... but you will look like an idiot ... and you'll probably trip over a lot. Very Monty Python :D

If it is on a strap around your torso then getting it to your eye takes ages and can be switched on at the same time.

 

What a load of picky fuss over seconds.

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I've never had a problem. By the time I see something I want to photograph it takes me a lot longer to get the camera to my eye than it does to switch it on (one click while it is being shifted to eye level).

 

Please be realistic:

If you walk around with the camera stuck to your eye then start up time might seem long ... but you will look like an idiot ... and you'll probably trip over a lot. Very Monty Python  :D

If it is on a strap around your torso then getting it to your eye takes ages and can be switched on at the same time.

 

What a load of picky fuss over seconds.

My apologies if you have a handicap and I offend.

 

Today's exercise:

1. have the camera in your hand.

2. Raise it to you eye.

3. If this takes seconds or longer than switching your M on go to 1.

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How many seconds does it take to move the camera to your eye? Please specify the exact time in milliseconds.

How long does it take to switch from Off to S? Again, please give the exact time in milliseconds.

Then ask yourself the question, "Are people being completely anal retentive about the whole time lag thing?"

How many seconds did it take to make the decision? Please state to the nearest millisecond.

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I've dealt with the slow wake-up (just under 2 secs) by switching off the sleep function, but of course this is at the expense of battery life.

And, yes, having religiously followed the interminable threads about SD cards, SDFormatter, firmware, formatting when the moon is full etc, I find the start-up and wake-up times are still too slow compared to my stone age M2 - and why should I accept a lesser standard than that?

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People used to lug a plate camera and tripod up a hill for two hours to get one shot of a lake. Then they would walk back down and spend ages in the darkroom to see the result.

Photography is not about speed, unless speed is your entire aim. Photography is art. Photography is not a sport. There are no medals for speed in art.

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.... find the start-up and wake-up times are still too slow compared to my stone age M2 - and why should I accept a lesser standard than that?

You don't have to accept any "standard". You can keep on using the lovely M2. OTOH, you can use any digital camera which is ready to shoot within the same time or shorter than the M2, if it pleases you to do so.

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You don't have to accept any "standard". You can keep on using the lovely M2. OTOH, you can use any digital camera which is ready to shoot within the same time or shorter than the M2, if it pleases you to do so.

You are right, of course, and I appreciate your courteous reply.

 

My point is that the change from analogue to digital has not brought improvements right across the board, but has resulted in reduced performance in areas which are important for some photographers. I hope that Leica, and others, recognise that there is demand (though clearly not universal) for improvement. If this demand is not expressed, then it might not get as high up Leica's list of priorities as I would wish. And frankly I don't like being told that "it is only a problem because there is something wrong with your photographic practice".

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It is indeed absolutely unacceptable that a $7K camera is unable to do in 2015 what my old 5D was able to do 8+ years ago i.e. start up and wake up at almost the same speed as a film camera. When will we have at last a digital M able to compete with a 50 y/o M3?

Edited by lct
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Sigh...

 

One of the most often quoted reasons for changing to a manual focus, basic auto exposure Leica M from AF DSLR's was to slow down and take a more considered approach to photography... and now people are worried about around a second or so to go from 'sleep' to 'ready'... 

 

I havent even even focused by that time... and the camera doesn't have to be 'on' to focus anyway... 

 

If this is all about zone focussing and snapping fast, then I'm impressed that your framing and exposure correction takes milliseconds too... which it would need to do to beat the camera...

 

And if you are on manual, having already metered... and will use post processing for any fine exposure correction, and you are zone focussing in order to catch that fleeting moment... well, I'm impressed with your physical and mental agility if the camera is slower than you... mine is less than a second from sleep to ready...

 

The reality is, if you see a 'decisive moment' and the camera isn't at your eye, then you have already missed it... 

 

I always thought the idea was to anticipate these moments in time, by reading the scene as it unfolds, or to anticipate a change or an expression or a movement and to take the shot when all the elements of your composition are in place... 

 

I don't think these comments are anything to do with the M being slow... I think it's simple impatience and an inability to prepare for what happens in front of you.

 

THAT is what we actually mean when we talk about slowing down and taking a more considered approach.

 

The weird thing is, the more you engage in the moment with the activity of taking photographs, the slower everything seems, because you are waiting for the moment... the more time you seem to have... and start up time has nothing to do with it... it's already on... isn't it..?   

 

The M isn't the limiting factor... you are...

Edited by Bill Livingston
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I don't think discussing this difference of opinion will go anywhere without some real timing data. Can anyone describe an experiment which can be performed without expensive equipment to measure standby to on, comfortable carry position to eye, focusing speed per metre change from original setting (beware of infinity in the calculation...), framing a preselected scene from a non preselected POV. Another useful measure would be time from pressing the shutter (because you thought the camera would be on) to when the camera is on.

From the scene, it would be good to know how long people hold a facial expression, how long a jumper is in the air, how long it takes someone to sense there is a camera pointed at them.

Perhaps some of these can be measured with an iPhone and high speed movie mode.

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I don't have any timing data. I switch the M-P on as I take it out of the bag or half press the shutter release when I reach for it as I'm walking. By the time I raise the camera to my eye, it is ready to shoot. That's good enough for me. :-)

 

g

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A quick non scientific test. Start up time measured as delay between turning on and live view popping up. Each measurement with a watch, done three times. I think margin of error is less than 1/2 sec. I assume here it is .3 sec.
Leica MP 240 (safari) SD Scandisk 64GB. Auto-review on for 3 sec.
- disk full of images. start up time 1.9 - 2.2 sec.
- SD formatted disk. start up time 1.6- 1.9 sec
- No disk. start up time 1.0-1.3 sec
- In camera format 1.8 - 2.1 sec

The fastest time was no Auto review, SD formatted card. 1.3-1.6 sec

Comparison:
Time for me to pull my camera to my eyes without knocking myself unconscious ~ 1sec
Start up time for Nikon D7000 with formatted card 0.0 - 0.3 sec

In essence the lag for me before I can shoot is less than 1 second with no auto-review, and more or less 1 second with auto-review. 

This 1 sec. is only relevant if I am walking around with a 35mm preset on 6 feet, f7.1 and auto ISO with the aim of ambushing subjects. It so happens that I sometimes do that. In which case I either: (i) keep my camera on, (ii) take my Nikon.

What I do not do, is feel surprised. That is because when I bought the camera the first thing I did is switch it on.  Inadvertently, I  learned that the start-up time is longer than my Nikon.

Edited by Adam
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