How to reduce grain and contrast in developing (never thought I'd ask that)

[rpavich]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm coming from the digital world and I'm developing my first films. Now that I can reliably get film onto a reel, and get it developed, my next question is this: how do I reduce contrast and grain when developing?

 

I shot a roll of Kentmere 400 @400 to test a new camera from KEH so the images aren't keepsakes. I decided to stand develop them because I'd never done it.

I used this recipe:

 

Adonal 1:100

 

Agitate for 1 minute (used Paterson tank stir stick gently)

 

Agitate at every 30 minute mark for 10 seconds the same way

 

Total time 90 minutes.

 

Wash

Fix

Wash

Hang

Here is a representative shot. It had SO MUCH contrast that I had to slam the contrast slider in Lightroom all the way to the left.


I know that contrast and grain are controlled via the developing process (at least partially) so how can I tame that aspect of it?

 

[Maarten]

I recommend to start with a standard development and leave the 'specialties' for later.

Kentmere 400, Adonal 1:50 needs 20 minutes. I would agitate every minute.

Turning the reel is sometimes not enough, it's better to turn the tank upside down.

Kentmere 400 will give a nice pronounced grain in Adonal while Kentmere 100 (Adonal 1:50, 15 minutes) will give you a more balanced negative.

I would prefer for the Kentmere 400 a developer like D-76 1:1, 11,5 minutes.

Have fun!

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[rpavich]

I recommend to start with a standard development and leave the 'specialties' for later.

Kentmere 400, Adonal 1:50 needs 20 minutes. I would agitate every minute.

Turning the reel is sometimes not enough, it's better to turn the tank upside down.

Kentmere 400 will give a nice pronounced grain in Adonal while Kentmere 100 (Adonal 1:50, 15 minutes) will give you a more balanced negative.

I would prefer for the Kentmere 400 a developer like D-76 1:1, 11,5 minutes.

Have fun!

Thanks very much. I'm shooting another roll, so I'll give this a try next. I also have some HC-110 if that might produce less grain and contrast.

[pico]

In small tanks, stand development is complete at ~40 minutes. Developing longer doesn't hurt.

 

There are developers which produce softer grain. Rodinal/Adonal is the opposite of soft with crisp, well defined grain.HC-110 is  similar. I use Rodinal with joy for  100-speed and lower films.

 

For softer grain look to developers which include, for example, sodium-sulphite at typically a 15% solution. (You add it yourself to the solution.)  It partially dissolves the grain. You like it or do not. I do not like it.

 

The swirl stick is not so good. Leave a bubble in the developer - the space unfilled under the protruding cap. That bubble will adequately agitate regardless of stand development or not.

 

Best of luck!

[rpavich]

In small tanks, stand development is complete at ~40 minutes. Developing longer doesn't hurt.

 

There are developers which produce softer grain. Rodinal/Adonal is the opposite of soft with crisp, well defined grain.HC-110 is  similar. I use Rodinal with joy for  100-speed and lower films.

 

For softer grain look to developers which include, for example, sodium-sulphite at typically a 15% solution. (You add it yourself to the solution.)  It partially dissolves the grain. You like it or do not. I do not like it.

 

The swirl stick is not so good. Leave a bubble in the developer - the space unfilled under the protruding cap. That bubble will adequately agitate regardless of stand development or not.

 

Best of luck!

Interesting!

Thanks Pico...I'll see about a different developer.

[pico]

If you print optically and wish your images to have soft look, I have from the 1920's an unknown type of  filter that might fit your enlarger, likely  to work  in front of the lens, however it might work just below your condenser.

[tobey bilek]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Shoot at 1/2 box speed and cut development time 20%.    Never found a film that did not work.

 

You will need to know the standard time to start for your enlarger.  Most published times are for diffusion,   condenser is 10% less.    So if you have a condenser take 10% off,  then an additional 20%.

 

There will ne increased shadow detail,  mild contrast,  and significant grain decrease.  

 

Opposite happens when you push,  less shadow detail, more contrast, more grain clumping..

 

All you need is 12" and 6 exposures to test.

 

Do not control contrast with agitation, reduce time.  

 

And invert, the stick is for first agitation only if you have the Patterson instructions.   The stick will give more replenishment at the edges, less in the center.  Do not blame me if you see a light streak  down the center from this method.

 

Two things are required for good even development,  fast even immersion ( the Patterson fills fast bottom up) and even replenishment across the film and the Patterson does this by having lots of empty space at the top for the developer to flow into.  For rank amateurs,  this tank is as foolproof as can be if you do not reengineer how it is supposed to work.

Edited September 21, 2015 by tobey bilek

[rpavich]

Shoot at 1/2 box speed and cut development time 20%.    Never found a film that did not work.

 

You will need to know the standard time to start for your enlarger.  Most published times are for diffusion,   condenser is 10% less.    So if you have a condenser take 10% off,  then an additional 20%.

 

There will ne increased shadow detail,  mild contrast,  and significant grain decrease.  

 

Opposite happens when you push,  less shadow detail, more contrast, more grain clumping..

 

All you need is 12" and 6 exposures to test.

 

Do not control contrast with agitation, reduce time.  

 

And invert, the stick is for first agitation only if you have the Patterson instructions.   The stick will give more replenishment at the edges, less in the center.  Do not blame me if you see a light streak  down the center from this method.

 

Two things are required for good even development,  fast even immersion ( the Patterson fills fast bottom up) and even replenishment across the film and the Patterson does this by having lots of empty space at the top for the developer to flow into.  For rank amateurs,  this tank is as foolproof as can be if you do not reengineer how it is supposed to work.

Thanks very much!

 

I'll give this a shot on the next roll.

[fotohuis]

For further reduction of grain: Use an Ultra Fine Grain developer which also means you have to overexpose for +1F stop, a bit depending on the type developer.

Suggestions:

CG-512/Rollei Low Speed (working on 24C too) 1+4

Perceptol 1+1 or Microdol-X 1+1

Windisch W665 1+0

[250swb]

This thread now also relates to the insane agitation methods the OP has taken on in the 'lighter bands top and bottom' thread

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/252445-lighter-bands-at-the-top-and-bottoms-of-my-imagesit-was-surprising-what-the-culprit-was/

 

it seems the that the game of Consequences has never been played or understood

 

 

 

 

Steve

[rpavich]

This thread now also relates to the insane agitation methods the OP has taken on in the 'lighter bands top and bottom' thread

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/252445-lighter-bands-at-the-top-and-bottoms-of-my-imagesit-was-surprising-what-the-culprit-was/

 

it seems the that the game of Consequences has never been played or understood

 

 

 

 

Steve

How so?

[250swb]

If you want to reduce grain and contrast you do not agitate the film as if you're shaking a cocktail.

 

 

Steve

[fotohuis]

Reduction of grain with less agitation  is working only with high acutance type developers. Beutler, FX-1, R09/Rodinal (which is containing para-Amino Phenol or Metol).

But when doing stand development (no agitation) the sharpness is getting worse. Also these type of developers are giving more sharpness in a higher dilution. However you have to take care to take a minimum amount of concentrate for each 135-36 or 120 roll film, like 5ml-5,5ml for R09/Rodinal.

Ultra Fine Grain type developers are always giving less sharpness. Normally the grain reduction is archieved by a high amount of Sodiumsulfite or a salt (Potassium- or Sodiumchloride) in the receipt or the use of a CD type ingrediënt like para- or ortho- Phenylene Diamine (MCM100 - W665).

Some films like Fomapan Creative 200, a mix between classical cubical type Silver crystals and hexagonal crystals are doing great in a type developer with para- or ortho- Phenylene Diamine. I had great results in 35mm with this film and Windisch W665. Develop 1+0 (= Stock) during 9:45 minutes at 20C. Officially you need to do some rippening with these type of developers. The USA variant is Panthermic 777, based on para- Phenylene Diamine. However the para version is much more staining and toxid then the ortho- version of this product. In the past it was used in hair dye. Can you imagine .....

[rpavich]

If you want to reduce grain and contrast you do not agitate the film as if you're shaking a cocktail.

 

 

Steve

Yes, that much I understood. I was referring to your comment linking this thread with the other one. Are you assuming that my "too much grain and contrast" comment was due to over-vigorous agitation?

Edited November 9, 2015 by rpavich

[250swb]

Yes, that much I understood. I was referring to your comment linking this thread with the other one. Are you assuming that my "too much grain and contrast" comment was due to over-vigorous agitation?

 

No because I assume you hadn't started the vigorous agitation regime back then. But if on the one hand you had found a way to reduce grain and contrast (as per the topic of this thread), using your new found cocktail shaker method of agitation you are going to be increasing it again, so negating any improvements. This is what I meant about 'consequences', doing one thing to solve a problem doesn't mean it won't have an effect on something else.

 

Steve

[rpavich]

No because I assume you hadn't started the vigorous agitation regime back then. But if on the one hand you had found a way to reduce grain and contrast (as per the topic of this thread), using your new found cocktail shaker method of agitation you are going to be increasing it again, so negating any improvements. This is what I meant about 'consequences', doing one thing to solve a problem doesn't mean it won't have an effect on something else.

 

Steve

Ahh...got it.,

 

The good news is that agitating "more vigorously" than I previously was (but not exactly like the video) produces good negs without light bands and without causing too much contrast or grain.

 

I'm not exactly sure why my previous effort was too grainy or contrasty but I haven't had that problem since.

[NJH]

Must have cut the time then or are working at a slightly lower temperature.

[pico]

This conversation emphasizes my reasons for abandoning 35mm. So fussy!

 

For large format I am so happy with constant agitation, something that is complicated in 35mm due to surging about the reel parts.

[PaulJohn]

I have been having the same problem. I like some grain but see this:

 

 

Kodak 400TX at 400 dev in Ilfosol 3 1+9

 

I am using a pretty standard recipe of 7mins 30 secs with inversions for 10secs every min at 20 degree C.

 

I am going to try longer dev at 1+14 with less inversions. Any comments?

 

Any advice on pp to reduce grain?

 

Thanks in advance.

Paul

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[250swb]

 

Any advice on pp to reduce grain?

 

 

 

Well the grain either isn't sharp (developer/film combination), hasn't been scanned well, or the image hasn't been sharpened sufficiently. If the grain was sharper, and I'd try sharpening the image first, it would make a wonderfully dramatic picture with more contrast (to define the grain). But I think the last thing this type of image needs is less grain because you will never get fine detail with 400 ISO 35mm film, so be bold, make it graphic and dramatic, use the grain don't hide it.

 

 

Edit: I have just tried sharpening the picture and the grain does become less mushy, so try some sharpening (but never during scanning). In fact adding more grain in Silver Efex transforms it into another sphere.

 

Steve

Edited December 24, 2015 by 250swb