Paul Wright Posted September 10, 2015 Share #1 Posted September 10, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, I was wondering if anyone has any info that could help me. My name is Paul Wright and I am researching / trying to understand, the effect of how logo’s affect desirability, hence thinking of Leica. It's the 'red spot' logo that fascinates me. I have stories of people adding a red spot sticker to a camera so that people think it is Leica and other stories of people covering it so it appears to me that others don’t think they are showing off. Such a tiny, simple logo that has such sway is amazing to me. I can't seem to find a definitive when it was first used, who came up with it (if known at all), why they added it, etc. The first example I can find of it is on the S1 model in the mid 70’s with the name Leitz in it and from 1984 the M6 had Leica within the dot. Are these the earliest examples? What I really need help from though is expert’s thoughts on why/how it became so iconic for these cameras. I would love to hear any thoughts or theories from any informed sources on people who love these cameras. Have I come to the right place? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 Hi Paul Wright, Take a look here Understanding the effect of the 'Red Spot' logo. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wildlightphoto Posted September 10, 2015 Share #2 Posted September 10, 2015 Various forms of the dot go back a long way. I have a box for the Televit rapid-focus grip probably from the 1960s that has the Leitz script in a circle. My Trinovid binoculars purchased new in 1977 have a black dot with the Leitz script. Personally I could do without the red dot. It attracts too much attention from people who use other brands who insist on telling me their own camera is just as good and cost a lot less money. I'd rather just take photos. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 10, 2015 Share #3 Posted September 10, 2015 There are khaki-green variants as well, mostly on accessories fron the 1950ies-1960ies Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 10, 2015 Share #4 Posted September 10, 2015 Same branding/labeling issue exists across many product lines....cars, blue jeans, etc, etc. There will always be some who want to exhibit the label, and others who will pay extra to take the label off, e.g. for 'de-badging' a Mercedes or other car. Some anecdotal history regarding the red dot.....the M6's made in Wetzlar had the word 'Leitz' on the dot, and after a move to Solms in 1988, it was changed to 'Leica'. The black version of the M8.2 came with a standard black dot (the silver version stayed red), apparently much to the chagrin of Leica management, presumably never to be repeated. Some third party services, e.g., DAG, will supply black dots for various M models, while Leica will not other than for those black M8.2s (if they're even still available). Leica milks these cosmetic preferences to the max by initially issuing M models with the red dot, then charging a small fortune for removing the logo and possibly adding a few other small twists (script on top plate, sapphire screen, etc). This only serves to feed the obsession...and the debate. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 10, 2015 Share #5 Posted September 10, 2015 First M with a red dot was the M4-2 if memory serves. Mine looked like that and the red dot could be unstuck from the vulcanite so it went to the bin right after unpacking in 1979. Made me miss my M4 but a motor winder could be used with the M4-2 so i kept it until now. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249929-understanding-the-effect-of-the-red-spot-logo/?do=findComment&comment=2885899'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 10, 2015 Share #6 Posted September 10, 2015 Same branding/labeling issue exists across many product lines....cars, blue jeans, etc, etc. There will always be some who want to exhibit the label, and others who will pay extra to take the label off, e.g. for 'de-badging' a Mercedes or other car. Some anecdotal history regarding the red dot.....the M6's made in Wetzlar had the word 'Leitz' on the dot, and after a move to Solms in 1988, it was changed to 'Leica'. The black version of the M8.2 came with a standard black dot (the silver version stayed red), apparently much to the chagrin of Leica management, presumably never to be repeated. Some third party services, e.g., DAG, will supply black dots for various M models, while Leica will not other than for those black M8.2s (if they're even still available). Leica milks these cosmetic preferences to the max by initially issuing M models with the red dot, then charging a small fortune for removing the logo and possibly adding a few other small twists (script on top plate, sapphire screen, etc). This only serves to feed the obsession...and the debate. Jeff Actually the Leica Dot is owned by Leica Microsystems, not by Leica Camera, who leases the rights,and they objected to the black colour. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyj Posted September 10, 2015 Share #7 Posted September 10, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) There is a book called "Views of Brand Culture - Leica" by Volker Albus and Achim Heine, that may be helpful to you. Publisher was "Nicolai". 2004, © 2004 Nicolaische Verlagsbuchhandlung GmbH, Berlin. I have a signed copy but am unwilling to give it up. B/r, John 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted September 10, 2015 Share #8 Posted September 10, 2015 I love my all Leica equipment whether it has the Red/Black logo.. it's the tools/quality that count.. My Rolex, Tissot Touch. Dodge Challenger, iMac's, MacBook Pro, iPads, iPhone's & many other high end pieces of equipment All have a Logo.. "I'm a Member" -- Brand Awareness & Loyalty.. I would happily give up the Logo's -- but the manufacturers insist they advertise on my property.. I wish you well in your task -- L Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted September 11, 2015 Share #9 Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Such a tiny, simple logo that has such sway is amazing to me. I think you may be reading too much into a (very) few heated debates that polarize opinion amongst a (very) few people. Generally Leica users are ambivalent about the Red Dot logo, they buy a camera to photograph things with and never notice the logo much. But there are a few people who buy a camera both for taking a photograph and for looking at (the only time you see the logo), and having an overt opinion about the Red Dot is an affectation more to do with preening and how people perceive themselves rather than how other people perceive the camera. There was once a brief period when indeed it may have been advantageous to cover the Red Dot when everybody else was using a film camera and other photographers could collar you and ask 'how do you like your Leica?'. If you wanted to get on with work it could be time consuming to talk about 'gear'. But as nowadays nobody knows what a Leica is, whether film or digital, and if a person has a vague clue they still can't say if your camera is an old film camera or a new digital camera, then covering the logo is a moot point that comes back to the personal affectation and how the photographer imagines they appear to other photographers who may be 'in the know'. Many think taping the logo makes them stealthy, many think it makes them look serious, some think both and that they get better photographs by doing it. There are many small myths built around Leica cameras, some of which started with a small kernel of truth as it applied in one instance at one particular time. These get inflated to become totemic symbols that in particular new users take on to become part of the family. They also use jargon in place of real words, and do all they can to adopt the mythical mores. The Red Dot, or covering it over, is all a part of that, an insubstantial talking shop of minor one-upmanship and self image and in terms of the wider society has no effect at all, not like wearing the wrong clothes in the wrong area of town can get you killed, or even getting mugged because you have a Rolex. True a mugger may get lucky and bag a brand new expensive digital Leica, but they may also bag an old 'worthless' film Leica, so the logo itself isn't working in the same way as a BMW M3 2015 against a BMW M3 1986, the car thief can spot the difference because of all the other visual clues, of which there are outwardly few on a Leica M from 1986 to 2015. So you see the logo has no power except amongst those who know it, even vaguely recognising it doesn't in itself offer any knowledge of the product itself. So in other words it's all smoke and mirrors and little substance, owning a Red Dot doesn't convey the same thing to a Nikon owner as it once did, they may look pityingly at you nowadays, many people may also wish they could get their money back after mistakenly buying into the Leica myths, unlike for instance the perpetual bragging rights of owning a Rolex (you never need to tell anybody the exact model you have and as of now Rolex have still not been superseded as a consumer goal). The Red Dot has been superseded as a consumer goal, and owners can only brag to other owners, but fortunately most just get on and make photographs without worrying about the Red Dot issue. Steve Edited September 11, 2015 by 250swb 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 11, 2015 Share #10 Posted September 11, 2015 +1 The discussions about removing or displaying badges on cars in car forums are very similar. I regard it as harmless monkey-display of shiny thing - and will happily join in with my fellow monkeys. I like to change the logos to black. For the only reason that I like it. Similar for the leather covering. I change it from time to time just for fun. At any rate this is better than those camera straps with the brand printed all over them in huge neon letters. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckrider Posted September 11, 2015 Share #11 Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) ...the leather covering. I change it from time to time just for fun. me too! I LOVE griptac, unfortunately it's only availiable in grey & black, would like to have it in red ond black camera! ...and olive green on a chromium one... At any rate this is better than those camera straps with the brand printed all over them in huge neon letters. +++1! these straps are raffish! go bottom-down this site for older Leitz logos: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/RF-Nikkor/Leica_RF/index.htm Thomas Edited September 11, 2015 by duckrider 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 11, 2015 Share #12 Posted September 11, 2015 I think the first Leica to sport a red dot badge was in fact the R3, launched in 1976. The first M was the M4-P in 1980. Of course before the red dot logo was used the famous Leica script served much the same purpose, especially on the nose cone of the brown ever ready cases or the LTM and earlier M cameras. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 11, 2015 Share #13 Posted September 11, 2015 The first M was the M4-P in 1980. M4-2 i believe. See post #5 above. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted September 11, 2015 Share #14 Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Not everyone knows about Leica. However - for those who do, I think the Leica red dot logo has more of an impact on people who don't own and use Leica cameras than on those who do own and use them. Edited September 11, 2015 by Carlos Danger 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 12, 2015 Share #15 Posted September 12, 2015 +1 The discussions about removing or displaying badges on cars in car forums are very similar. I regard it as harmless monkey-display of shiny thing - and will happily join in with my fellow monkeys. I visited my dealership for regular maintenance and was asked why I removed all the badges. I replied, "So I can pick it out in a lot full of 'em." 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted September 12, 2015 Share #16 Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) I visited my dealership for regular maintenance and was asked why I removed all the badges. I replied, "So I can pick it out in a lot full of 'em." If that does not make your car stand out enough, you might think about having your car painted the same color as http://www.wired.com/2009/11/leica-m7-hermes-a-14000-film-camera/ Edited September 12, 2015 by Carlos Danger Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted September 12, 2015 Share #17 Posted September 12, 2015 If that does not make your car stand out enough, you might think about having your car painted the same color as http://www.wired.com/2009/11/leica-m7-hermes-a-14000-film-camera/ My camera-case-on-wheels is an ex-US Forest Service pickup truck. I don't have any trouble picking it out of a parking lot Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249929-understanding-the-effect-of-the-red-spot-logo/?do=findComment&comment=2886892'>More sharing options...
pico Posted September 12, 2015 Share #18 Posted September 12, 2015 If that does not make your car stand out enough, you might think about having your car painted the same color as http://www.wired.com/2009/11/leica-m7-hermes-a-14000-film-camera/ This isn't close enough? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hiles Posted September 13, 2015 Share #19 Posted September 13, 2015 I want my camera to attract no attention, or as little as possible. My film Ms have only the Leica script on the top, but not infrequently someone will comment on the "antique" or some such (Oooo, Ahhhh, Eeeee). As if I drove into McDonalds in a RR SIlver Ghost. Wondeful, admirable - but mainly quaint. Doesn't change the pictures. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wright Posted September 14, 2015 Author Share #20 Posted September 14, 2015 Various forms of the dot go back a long way. I have a box for the Televit rapid-focus grip probably from the 1960s that has the Leitz script in a circle. My Trinovid binoculars purchased new in 1977 have a black dot with the Leitz script. Personally I could do without the red dot. It attracts too much attention from people who use other brands who insist on telling me their own camera is just as good and cost a lot less money. I'd rather just take photos. Do you find that people also reconignise the make of camera because of the red dot even if they don't have camera? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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