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What are the consequences of allowing a film M, e.g. M2, M3, M4, to sit idle for 15 years. I know that cameras are not easily compared to automobiles, but have experience with the latter and know that time, not miles, can sometimes be the greatest evil concerning mechanical devices.

 

Is a well cared for, constantly used, older M a safer bet than the same camera that has spent the last 15 years sitting idle?

 

Are there any particular photos/views of particular components/parts of such a camera that are necessary to the evaluation of how time has treated the idle camera?

Edited by Wayne
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Hello Wayne,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

Well, you just asked a large pile of questions wrapped up in not too many words.

 

First the answer: Most likely it will be 6 of 1 or 1/2 dozen of the other - maybe.

 

The cameras you asked about above were meant to be used on a regular basis so they are reasonably robustly built. The lubricants they came with from the factory originally have a long life IF the cameras were stored more or less within their appropriate parameters which are Military (Meaning for circumstances that are sometime less than optimal) Specifications. Assuming they are the original factory lubricants or replacements which are of the same quality.

 

Cameras that have sat for extended periods of time without being used MIGHT be perfectly usable without further service - maybe.

 

One way to check this without film in the camera is to GENTLY wind the shutter & fire it off a number of times to see if you can redistribute any lubricants which might have settled. Try to GENTLY operating all of the controls a number of times over & over again.

 

After firing the shutter 12 times at EACH marked speed (Including "B", the lightning bolt ((if present)) & the self timer): If the shutter sounds squeaky, too slow, too fast, or otherwise "not quite right" after all of this exercise it MIGHT need cleaning, lubricating & adjusting (a CLA).

 

The same thing with the lenses: 100 (one hundred) times back & forth both. Infinity to closest focus with EACH lens on the camera so you can also exercise the range/viewfinder mechanism.

 

Operate the diaphram of each lens back & forth the same 100 (no need for parentheses the second time) times. 

 

The same with other controls like rewind knobs, frame selectors & the like.

 

Leicas are like Samoyeds: They like to be on the couch sometimes but they are built for & are happiest when they are working.The more they work without being abused the happier they are.

 

This is a start. Feel free to ask more questions. this might take more doing. Please keep in mind:

 

The only silly question is the 1 you don't ask.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited by Michael Geschlecht
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Many years ago a visiting Leica tech told me...."don't just sit on a couch watching TV munching potato chips...exercise your Leica body at least each month (pretty much as Michael said above), and you'll probably never have to use my services". I'd say very gently to make sure nothing has seized, and if ok, then begin working your way thru the chain to redistribute lubes. In my experience with old cameras which have sat for years untouched, you might also set it in a moderately warm spot first to ease viscosity before beginning.

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Hello Pico,

 

What you said is quite accurate but not always necessary in all instances when cameras have sat for extended periods.

 

The lubricants used in the cameras under discussion, I don't know what types of lubricant are used in today's cameras, were taken, for the most part, from the clock/watch & fine instruments industries. These lubricants were designed to operate over long periods without need of additional attention. It doesn't cost anything to try what I suggested. Additionally: If the exercizing is done GENTLY there is very little likelyhood of anything negative happening.

 

Don't forget cameras & lenses are like people: The less you take them apart & put them back together again the happier they are.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

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What are the consequences of allowing a film M, e.g. M2, M3, M4, to sit idle for 15 years. I know that cameras are not easily compared to automobiles, but have experience with the latter and know that time, not miles, can sometimes be the greatest evil concerning mechanical devices.

When any automobile sits unused it's normally the soft materials are the first to break down.  Hoses, belts and the gaskets around the windows are the first to go.  Unlike many older cameras with foam light seals that not only turn to goo but also cause some of the out gassing which fogs the viewfinders, the solid body of the film M, especially models prior to the M6, contain very little plastic or rubber.  As long as the rangefinder optics are in good shape, no separation or desilvering, a little gental persuasion will get most of them working.  

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Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the information, especially madNbad's comments concerning soft components being largely absent in the old film lieca rangefinders. It gives me a bit more confidence going forward. My basic reason for the purchase of a second film M is that my M3 is away for CLA and I will likely not get it back for another six months or so. Among other things, I hope this second camera-whatever it winds up being- will function properly for at least six months before it needs to be sent of for CLA.

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According to what I was told by several factory-trained Leica repair people, these cameras used a few different lubricants for various mechanisms, and the one that has a strong tendency to hang after prolonged disuse is the slow-speed clockwork which controls shutter speeds from 1/15 and slower.  When working properly, a slight metallic after-sound, like a ball bearing settling in a metal cup, can be heard at 1/15, and at the slower speeds there is a buzz during the time the shutter is open.  Again according to the repair folks, the original lubricant tends to dry out over time, the result being the absence of that metallic after-sound at 1/15, sometimes stuttering of the buzz at the slower speeds, or a lack of any buzz at all (the shutter operates instantaneously without being slowed and timed by the clockwork).  When that happens, unlike with leaf shutters like those found in Rolleiflexes, the only recourse for a Leica is cleaning and re-lubricating of the mechanism. 

 

If the camera has had a CLA in the last 15 years or so, it's possible a newer synthetic lubricant was used, and those tend not to gum up over time. 

 

Basically, if the slow speeds work properly now, and you keep it exercised, they should stay ok.  If they hang now, the neede for a CLA is a given.

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@bocaburger:

 

Thanks for the interesting and useful information. I missed the camera I was considering. It is probably a good thing as I would not have been able to examine it prior to purchase, and the seller offered no return.

 

My old Canon F1 (first DSLR) has been idle for about 10 years now. The slow speed shutter is the only thing that is malfunctioning on it.....In almost exactly the way you described.

 

I get to look at an M4 tomorrow, as well as an M2. I will certainly be prepared to better evaluate the cameras now.

 

Thanks again, to all.

 

Best regards,

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If the M2 has a self timer and it works, everything else should be good.  Take your time and listen to the shutter.  Speeds below 1/30th have distinctive sounds and make sure the shutter stays open on the "Bulb" setting.  Best of luck with your search.

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Hello Wayne,

 

Collecting together a number of the suggestions from a number of the Posts above:

Fast speeds from 1/1000th of a second to the lightning bolt (1/50th of a second in some early M3's) is 1 series of sounds. Some differences in sound quality as you change from 1 indicated speed to the other but also many similarities heard for all.

 

Intermediate speeds, 1/15th & 1/30th: Sort of sound like a steel ball bearing " bouncing" on something hard. But not exactly. Sometimes in a camera that hasn't been used for a long time you have to do these 2 individual speeds separately as well as together a number of times until you hear the "bouncing" repeatedly with both. Sometimes it helps to exercise both positions back & forth between  !/15th & 1/8th as well as between 1/30th & the lightning bolt or 1/50th of a second a number of times. As well as back & forth between 1/15th & 1/30th.

 

The slow speeds 1/8th of a second thru 1 second sounds like a clock works running down somewhat more quickly than you might think a clock works might run. These speeds sound like a clockworks running progressively more slowly as the speeds you set get slower.

 

Don't forget to operate "B" a number of times. Just the opening & closing of the shutter to be heard.

 

It is also important to exercise the shutter delay on the front of the camera. The shutter delay/self timer also sounds like a clock works running down. Because it is. Just like the slow speeds mechanism is.

 

Sometimes some of these speeds (Both shutter speeds & self timer) do not always sound exactly as described above when you first start to exercise them. Please remember gentleness & repetition.

 

On an M3 The self timer can be wound or/& released either before or after winding the shutter. Do not wind the shutter while it is running.

 

As a matter of fact: Do not wind the shutter when any set speed is still running: This could cause problems.

 

On an M3 the self timer can be bypassed any number of times after you wind it. If you wind the shutter & then decide not to use it, you can just go ahead & fire the shutter as long as the self timer is not still running. You have to wind the self timer lever at least 90 degrees to have it begin to engage the mechanism & for it to function correctly.

 

Please remember to exercise each position of everything at least 12 times, as per above: All the individual speeds + "B" & the self timer.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

.

Edited by Michael Geschlecht
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Once again, thanks for all the help.

 

I went to look at an M4 and an M2 today. This is what I purchased:

 

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For me, it was nowhere near as hard a choice as I had imagined. Given that both cameras were great old Leicas, the feel of the rewind, and the sound of the M2 shutter pretty much made it impossible for me to go with the M4.

 

Oh, the lens also followed me home. Does that sort of thing happen often?

 

Now to finish buying my B&W development gear.

 

Best regards,

 

Wayne

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To put a finish to the post, this is one of the first test shots with the new M2 and the 35 2.5 summarit. Cheap 400 Fuji color film purchased from, and processed by Walgreens. I am not unhappy with it. I look forward to getting better

 

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Edited by Wayne
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