wlaidlaw Posted August 21, 2015 Share #1 Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I have been playing around with the 1931 nickel Elmar 50/3.5 off my 1© Standard on the M240, as I wanted to make some old fashioned looking black and white photographs and I have run out of 35mm B&W film. In France any B&W film is now mail order only unless you are near one of the major cities (FNAC keeps a small range of film, usually including Kodak T-Max 100 or 400). No problem I thought I can use the M240 and the new film grain tool in the latest versions of Camera RAW or Lightroom (Capture One is being very fragile at the moment in the Beta 6 of El Capitan). I thought I should check that the focus was correct on a cheap Leica LTM to LM 50/75 ring, with the little bit of white paper covering the LED sensors between the ring and camera body. I was pleased to find that at f3.5, it seemed pretty much spot on, comparing RF with EVF and focus peaking, albeit peaking on this elderly lens was weak. I thought to increase the strength of the peaking by shutting the aperture down to f5.6. However I was puzzled to find that the RF no longer agreed with the EVF by a significant amount. I thought I must have made an error and the whole lens was back focusing, so I went back to f3.5. No - all was now correct again. The only conclusion I can come to is that this lens exhibits aperture shift to the extent that would make a poor 35 ASPH Summilux proud. I tried again with my 1950 Coated f3.5 Elmar and found that although there was a little aperture shift, it was not nearly as bad but that is a pretty sharp lens and does not give any vintage feel. So I have decided to use my 1953 50/2 Summitar as well as the '31 Elmar, as the Summitar is soft enough to give a vintage look to the photos but as it is the later "convex as it closes" hex diaphragm model, it does not aperture shift to any great degree. Wilson Edited August 21, 2015 by wlaidlaw Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here Aperture shift on 1931 Nickel 50 Elmar significant. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jc_braconi Posted August 21, 2015 Share #2 Posted August 21, 2015 Wilson, if you agree I submit you this pict I took with the oldest Elmar SM 3.5 / 50 I have (1932) and M9-P 5.6 open the color version is amazing... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249195-aperture-shift-on-1931-nickel-50-elmar-significant/?do=findComment&comment=2875179'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted August 21, 2015 JC, I am guessing that lens assembly was a bit more art than science in that period and that there was significant sample variation between lenses. In fact we know that this continued right up to the 35 ASPH Summilux, where there was huge sample variation between ones that aperture shifted to the extent that they were not really usable and ones like mine, that barely aperture shift at all. The aperture shift on my 1931 Elmar is to an extent that if you focussed on a rangefinder, the aperture shift would easily be visible on film, let along digital. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted August 21, 2015 Share #4 Posted August 21, 2015 Wilson, If I understood well, I agree with your guess about more art than science, during the past years I recognized the "character" (i.e. quality)of some lenses that people were used to post in this forum especially in B&W. For other lenses they were surely set on the largest aperture, next the DOF would compensate the shift on the other apertures and distances I will try different Elmar 3.5/50 using my Sony Alpha 7 II on a tripod and a tape. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 22, 2015 Share #5 Posted August 22, 2015 The description of significant focus shift from the 5 cm Elmar puzzled me. So I tried (with an example of the lens no. 179.426 - so it comes from 1933). On the following examples you see three bottles at a distance of a little bit more than 1m, the left about 3cm closer to the camera, the right one about 3cm further away, and I focussed on the middle bottle. These are crops from the center. First picture with f 3.5. (You may notice that the focus is somewhere in between the left and the center bottle, while the right one is weaker - usually there should be more depth of focus on the rear side, and less on the front): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249195-aperture-shift-on-1931-nickel-50-elmar-significant/?do=findComment&comment=2875704'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 22, 2015 Share #6 Posted August 22, 2015 Now with f 4.5: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249195-aperture-shift-on-1931-nickel-50-elmar-significant/?do=findComment&comment=2875705'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 22, 2015 Share #7 Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Now f 6.3: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! As normal, sharpness gets better with smaller openings and there is more depth of focus. You might guess a very slight focus shift, though I could not call it significant. Edited August 22, 2015 by UliWer Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! As normal, sharpness gets better with smaller openings and there is more depth of focus. You might guess a very slight focus shift, though I could not call it significant. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249195-aperture-shift-on-1931-nickel-50-elmar-significant/?do=findComment&comment=2875707'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 22, 2015 Share #8 Posted August 22, 2015 Now let's try again with I lens which has really significant focus-shift. Same distance, same bottles, same camera (M9), same crops, but the lens is a 1/1.5 50mm Summarit - No. 10565080 from 1953. First f 1.5: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Even though the focus was on the bottle in the center, it is obviously out of focus; you might guess the real focus even in front of the left bottle (which was 3cm in front of the center one on which I focussed). Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Even though the focus was on the bottle in the center, it is obviously out of focus; you might guess the real focus even in front of the left bottle (which was 3cm in front of the center one on which I focussed). ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249195-aperture-shift-on-1931-nickel-50-elmar-significant/?do=findComment&comment=2875717'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 22, 2015 Share #9 Posted August 22, 2015 F 2.8: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249195-aperture-shift-on-1931-nickel-50-elmar-significant/?do=findComment&comment=2875718'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 22, 2015 Share #10 Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) F 5.6: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! So the scene changes dramatically, when the lens is stopped down from F 1.5 to f 2.8. With f 5.6 it seems rather normal, that depth of focus gets the right bottle (3cm behind the center on which i focussed ) in good focus. Edited August 22, 2015 by UliWer Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! So the scene changes dramatically, when the lens is stopped down from F 1.5 to f 2.8. With f 5.6 it seems rather normal, that depth of focus gets the right bottle (3cm behind the center on which i focussed ) in good focus. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249195-aperture-shift-on-1931-nickel-50-elmar-significant/?do=findComment&comment=2875719'>More sharing options...
lleo Posted August 23, 2015 Share #11 Posted August 23, 2015 At 1,5 is unusable. At 2,8 is great. I guess you focused the center bottle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted August 23, 2015 Share #12 Posted August 23, 2015 I am tempted to try my two Elmars (a 1938 3.5 and a 50s 2.8) on the A7 but have been wondering how to work it, as the normal way to use them would be to set aperture before unlocking the focussing, whereas withan EVF its 'normal' to focus at full aperture then stop down (unless you are exploring focus shift of course!) How do you get on with the evf? On both my Elmars the focus wouldmove if I tried to stop down. Gerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiftyonepointsix Posted August 26, 2015 Share #13 Posted August 26, 2015 My earliest Nickel Elmar has much wear in the helical, makes focusing close-up difficult. There is a lot of wobble in the helical as you reach MFD, and it throws the focus off. But... at $15 with a Black Leica III behind it- no complaints... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 26, 2015 Share #14 Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) Hello fiftyonepointsix, Welcome to the Forum. It is possible that the "wobble" you feel in your Elmar is from a drying out of the lubricant used for the focusing helical pair interface surfaces. The lubricant used in focusing helicals is more of a grease than an oil. Once the lubricant is gone there is more space between the helical pair surfaces than there would be if the lubricant were a thinner oil. A cleaning & relubrication of the helicals might tighten up some, if not all, of the "wobble". Best Regards, Michael Edited August 26, 2015 by Michael Geschlecht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiftyonepointsix Posted August 29, 2015 Share #15 Posted August 29, 2015 Hello fiftyonepointsix, Welcome to the Forum. It is possible that the "wobble" you feel in your Elmar is from a drying out of the lubricant used for the focusing helical pair interface surfaces. The lubricant used in focusing helicals is more of a grease than an oil. Once the lubricant is gone there is more space between the helical pair surfaces than there would be if the lubricant were a thinner oil. A cleaning & relubrication of the helicals might tighten up some, if not all, of the "wobble". Best Regards, Michael I took the lens apart and tried some vacuum pump grease in the helical: did not solve the problem, the wobble is still present. The helical is worn. The Leica III had seen a lot of use, too bad it cannot talk. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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