Thoughts on the secret new Leica and current range.

[lct]

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What could appeal me is a better compatibility with M and R lenses and the possibility to bring up image magnification automatically when focusing the laters, if any. But apart from that, i would be rather tempted by the Sony to replace my old 5D as digital back for R lenses if the "new" Leica mirrorles doesn't exceed my current expectations.

[mjh]

However I'm not sure I'd agree that Leica do know what they're doing lately. That's a very large range of low/middle market cameras, considering how Leica position themselves these days, and they've gone down a few dead ends, of which T looks to be the latest. I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the S line either.

While one could argue that it would be a good idea to concentrate more on the low end of the market as that is where the real money gets made, I don’t see Leica doing that. Neither the Q nor the T (or the X) are exactly low end. Neither is the M, and the S is Leicas professional camera line.

 

Anyway, you see the models and systems on the market now, i.e. cameras developed like one, two, three, or four years ago. What Leica sees is a portfolio including cameras and systems they are developing now or that are about to be released in the near future. And if a new product should turn out to go for the high end market and not try to compete with Sony on price, people will be complaining that Leica should cater more to the low and middle market …

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[IkarusJohn]

Some may, Michael, but I don't really think they can be taken too seriously. 

 

Sure, we would all like our gear to be cheaper. However, given the choice of a cheap "me too" Sony competitor, and Leica going its own way with products that meet a market demand, I'd go with the Leica. Price isn't really the issue, provided it isn't ridiculous. 

[Peter H]

Why does anyone buy a Leica when there are cheaper cameras that probably work just as well and in some specifics, better?

 

There are a host of reasons, principle among them being that we buy things because we like them, and justify it to ourselves later.  I have little doubt that this will continue to be the case with the new M. It will never be a simple question of comparing specifications, or returns on investment.

[earleygallery]

Why does anyone buy a Leica when there are cheaper cameras that probably work just as well and in some specifics, better?

 

There are a host of reasons, principle among them being that we buy things because we like them, and justify it to ourselves later.  I have little doubt that this will continue to be the case with the new M. It will never be a simple question of comparing specifications, or returns on investment.

 

Absolutely. 

 

This is why I never understood the excuse Leica gave for not developing a DSLR camera to replace the R line. 

 

They have made the T which is a very average camera and has a huge number of competitors at much lower cost with much better spec. But people still buy it. 

 

The M is fortunate in that it has no direct competition. 

[earleygallery]

While one could argue that it would be a good idea to concentrate more on the low end of the market as that is where the real money gets made, I don’t see Leica doing that. Neither the Q nor the T (or the X) are exactly low end. Neither is the M, and the S is Leicas professional camera line.

 

Anyway, you see the models and systems on the market now, i.e. cameras developed like one, two, three, or four years ago. What Leica sees is a portfolio including cameras and systems they are developing now or that are about to be released in the near future. And if a new product should turn out to go for the high end market and not try to compete with Sony on price, people will be complaining that Leica should cater more to the low and middle market …

 

Low end is a relative term. The PanaLeica's are easy money for Leica, Panasonic do most of the work, Leica get them to put a slightly different casing on the cameras and package them with some better extras. Even now some buyers are not aware they're buying a Panasonic. The badge sells. That's great for Leica. 

 

The X and T are - for Leica - low end models. Of course I have no idea what new X and T models are in the pipeline, if there are indeed any. 

 

The new Leica might have a T mount but a FF sensor. Where does that leave the current T? Of course Leica could sell a crop system and a full frame system, just like Sony, and Canon and Nikon do…….

[pico]

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PanaLeica's are easy money for Leica

 

Panasonics are also hackable.

[IkarusJohn]

One thing I have missed on my Leicas is an indication through the viewfinder just how much I am under or over exposing.

 

Back in the day, my FE & FE2 cameras had a needle on the right hand side of the viewfinder, showing what the shutter speed was.  If I switched to manual, I got a needle and a ring on a wand, which I then lined up to get the correct exposure.  More critically, I could see by how much I was under or over exposing at a glance.

 

Not so with Leica - I get a diamond showing under or over exposure, and I have to fiddle with either the aperture or the shutter dial to see by how many stops.  I have thought for some time that it would be great to be able to see how far over or under I am in manual without that fiddling - whether by increasing the number of arrows or giving a number.  I don't understand why Leica doesn't offer this.  I do understand that some will Grinch like say it clutters up the viewfinder (I recall similar comments when I observed that the M Edition 60 briefly flashed up the remaining space on the SD card after each shot - nice touch, for someone who actually uses the camera).

 

What will be most interesting about the new camera will be what is included, and what is left out.

[105012]

One thing I have missed on my Leicas is an indication through the viewfinder just how much I am under or over exposing.

 

Back in the day, my FE & FE2 cameras had a needle on the right hand side of the viewfinder, showing what the shutter speed was.  If I switched to manual, I got a needle and a ring on a wand, which I then lined up to get the correct exposure.  More critically, I could see by how much I was under or over exposing at a glance.

 

Not so with Leica - I get a diamond showing under or over exposure, and I have to fiddle with either the aperture or the shutter dial to see by how many stops.  I have thought for some time that it would be great to be able to see how far over or under I am in manual without that fiddling - whether by increasing the number of arrows or giving a number.  I don't understand why Leica doesn't offer this.  I do understand that some will Grinch like say it clutters up the viewfinder (I recall similar comments when I observed that the M Edition 60 briefly flashed up the remaining space on the SD card after each shot - nice touch, for someone who actually uses the camera).

 

What will be most interesting about the new camera will be what is included, and what is left out.

 

Very true, the LEDs do not give this info and are distracting. There was one metered Leica which had a lovely analogue in viewfinder meter gauge (also less distracting than flashing LEDs), the M5. These days I use an M3, just frame lines and the focus patch (instantly  removable without smudging by resting a finger on the rangefinder window guards), pure Zen!

[mooky]

I'm thinking Leica (assuming the rumor is real) will release a 'new' or modern M camera that will use both legacy M glass and a new AF line of lenses to be introduced over time, it would have 'live view' through an EVF for the new glass and a method for using the legacy glass; by the EVF. As to a new type 'opto-electric' finder/EVF, it seems technologically possible and needed for the legacy glass or maybe for a link to the 'heritage design'.

The M system as it is now would stay in the line-up for those who are quite happy with it's 'qaint' but limited, adapted functionality, it is after all the lone connection to Leica's origins. But they need to step out and whether it's 'affordable' when compared to the competetion remains to be seen, but increasing usability is the last need of the M system and a new advanced 'hybrid' M body could do that.

As to the rest of the line-up, the latest 'S' sale has brought a reality to it's current market. Too, to introduce the S '007' (would Leica please stop with the three-digit modeling) with another plus $20K (USA) pricing is a bit embarassing even considering the 'upgrades' after the recent hugely discounted sale.

The X cameras would fade, and they would likely(?) keep on with the T? The remaining 'pana-leicas' would continue on.

As usual, we'll find out soon enough....

[250swb]

We are expecting a new M or high end camera because the impending announcement comes at a time in the lifecycle that suggests this. But it also comes at a time when another lifecycle is played out, about six months after the release of a donor Panasonic camera that's fits the desired profile the Leica version is announced, so that falls into the territory of the Panasonic GX8. We've had the 'no way will it be m43' discussions before, but what did we get before, yet another Leica X, T, etc. that failed to light the blue touch paper in creating wider and more reliable on-going sales of bodies and lenses. It also means it could be in the shops for Christmas and not the long drawn out wait until May next year.

 

Steve

[Manoleica]

Langley have a Task Force dedicated to uncovering Leica's newest and most secret technological wonders!

[lancet]

As much as I would like an affordable Leica, I think the largest mistake Leica can make is to start competing on price. 

 

For every product there is place for a luxury variant in the market. There are Vertu phones that don't make any better calls than the cheap Android, there are Aston Martin Rapides that don't make for a overall better ride than the VW Passat, and so on...

 

Leica is the only luxury producer in the camera market and they should maintain that point just by not allowing the competition to run away to much technologically. 

 

If they start competing on price, they can never beat Sony, either on the lowest price possible or the technology inside. 

 

I think that if they produced a T that was a full frame and was double the price with simpler controls, it would have sold miles better. This user interface was better for a high-end compact to sell to the rich phone photography crowd.

 

I don't think a working DSLR pro will ever again consider a Leica since it will never produce the full range of long range telephoto lenses or the AF system of Canon or Nikon complexity and performance. That ship has sailed. I would have even voted for a slightly larger system with a larger sensor (at least 36x48) to maintain a full stop advantage and tout it as your biggest advantage vs Canon and Nikon. The crowd that buys a Leica needs only one advantage to "justify" their purchase. For the M it has always been the rangefinder.

 

I really hope Leica will survive because photography will be much poorer without it. 

 

 

16 bit vs 42MP for a fraction of the price... Do you think you would bet on Leica? 

[peterv]

I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the S line either. 

 

 

Hi James, if I remember correctly, you were not exactly happy when the new S system was announced back in 2008. I think I remember you being a proponent of the R10 back then? Anyway, why the anti-S attitude? Have you tried it? It really is a great system. 

 

There's no need to create FUD about the future of the S system. Leica sells maybe less S cameras per year than any of their other systems, but that does not mean the system is not worthwhile to maintain. 

 

As for your remark that the system is mostly sold to amateurs, I think you're right. The same can be said for any other camera out there, be it a Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad or Phase. But that does not mean the S system is not not relatively succesful amongst so-called pro's.

 

Kind regards, Peter

[janki]

If it is correct that Leica now finally thinking of launching a FF EVIL camera system, I hope it will be a system that can withstand harsh environments.

In other words, the system must consist of real "work tools", and not “jewelry” that fits best in showcases indoors.

[earleygallery]

Hi James, if I remember correctly, you were not exactly happy when the new S system was announced back in 2008. I think I remember you being a proponent of the R10 back then? Anyway, why the anti-S attitude? Have you tried it? It really is a great system. 

 

There's no need to create FUD about the future of the S system. Leica sells maybe less S cameras per year than any of their other systems, but that does not mean the system is not worthwhile to maintain. 

 

As for your remark that the system is mostly sold to amateurs, I think you're right. The same can be said for any other camera out there, be it a Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad or Phase. But that does not mean the S system is not not relatively succesful amongst so-called pro's.

 

Kind regards, Peter

 

Hi,

 

Wow, 2008, that long  ago LOL. I really don't remember what exactly I said at the time but I think I was 'pro' the new system. What has failed it has been the lengthy delay in Leica releasing new lenses (the CS lenses took several years to appear from launch) and the lack of necessary back up for a pro system. 

 

I'm sure it's a great camera, looked at in isolation, but I suspect the latest Canon 5D will offer the pro market much more. 

 

The S was a good idea, at the time. Things have moved on, there is no sign of Leica committing to a pro level of service, and I suspect most S users would be more than happy with a Leica FF DSLR if one existed.

 

The forthcoming camera won't be a DSLR, but an AF FF system will certainly fill a much needed gap in the line up. What that means for the future of the S is anyone's guess of course. 

[wattsy]

there is no sign of Leica committing to a pro level of service

 

Actually S service is the one area which is ok. My limited working experience with the S system has been marked by significant problems with the camera which Leica UK have dealt with responsively and in a manner appropriate (making a site visit, etc.) for a professional camera system. It is the M system service that is broken and effectively non-existent (as an example of that I have recently been informed by Leica that there is now only one person at Wetzlar doing M film camera repairs!).

Edited August 17, 2015 by wattsy

[jaapv]

Hmmm... I cannot imagine that they get huge numbers of film M cameras in for repairs, and to have staff sitting around idle for lack of work does not seem productive to me.

[earleygallery]

Actually S service is the one area which is ok. My limited working experience with the S system has been marked by significant problems with the camera which Leica UK have dealt with responsively and in a manner appropriate (making a site visit, etc.) for a professional camera system. It is the M system service that is broken and effectively non-existent (as an example of that I have recently been informed by Leica that there is now only one person at Wetzlar doing M film camera repairs!).

 

That's good to hear (that Leica are providing a 'pro' service for the S pro users) - but "significant problems" ?!  

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[wattsy]

Hmmm... I cannot imagine that they get huge numbers of film M cameras in for repairs, and to have staff sitting around idle for lack of work does not seem productive to me.

You imagine wrong (not for the first time). Film camera repairs are backlogged for months and that is before they have found themselves with just one person. Your attempts to always put a positive spin on things has gone beyond self-parodic and is now just tedious.