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Thoughts on the secret new Leica and current range.


earleygallery

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With the rumours of a new FF Leica AF system on the way, is the Leica range a little 'unfocussed' now ?

 

Let's look at it;

 

C - small P&S compact (Panasonic model)

D - P&S with a 4/3 sensor (Panasonic model)

V - Hybrid style camera, small sensor, long zoom range (Panasonic model)

X - fixed 35mm lens, APSC sensor

X-E - fixed 35mm lens, APSC sensor

X Vario - mid range zoom, APSC sensor

T - APSC sensor again but with interchangeable AF lenses

Q - Full Frame sensor, fixed 28mm lens

M-E - M mount rangefinder body, FF sensor

M/MP - M mount rangefinder body, FF sensor, but offering live view & movies

S - medium format sensor, SLR system with AF lenses

Film M bodies, MP, M-A and M7

 

When I look at that range the big gap, IMHO, is an AF FF system camera for the advance amateur or pro photographer. Exactly the camera that Leica said they couldn't (wouldn't) make, because they wouldn't be able to compete with Nikon/Canon/Sony etc.

 

So then, where will the new system sit I wonder? Will it be another separate system, like the T is to the X Vario, a 'designer' product to appeal to the style conscious amateur - polished metal body or some other such design feature. I doubt there's much of a market for such a camera with a FF sensor.

 

Maybe it's a Q 'system'. Small range of AF lenses to appeal to the advanced amateur who wants more than the T offers, but won't buy an M. That could really eat into T sales. Wouldn't most Leica purchasers for a system camera just buy the Q instead of the T? In other ranges one would say the price differential with a smaller sensor system is important, I doubt that's the case for Leica.

 

It might be a replacemnt for the M system - hybrid electronic rangefinder, new mount with AF lenses but also designed with M users in mind. I doubt it, the M appears to sell well and there is surely demand from existing users for new M (digital) models for some years to go.

 

Will it, on the other hand, sit above the M as a more advanced electronic rangefinder/hybrid AF system camera? Possibly but I would question the strategy of developing an expensive electronic rangefinder for a camera that is designed to primarily work with AF lenses.

 

If the sensor is as good as some rumors suggest, and it is an 'advanced system' camera, will it eat into the S system territory? The S sells mostly to amateurs and Leica have apparently failed to capture much of the pro market with the S system. There are few signs so far of them doing much to redress this. If a new AF FF system camera can offer nearly the same, or possibly even better (?) IQ in a smaller/cheaper package who will choose the S?

 

I do feel that Leica made the wrong decision when they shelved their plans for a DSLR to replace the R system. Clearly there is a market/need for an AF based advanced system camera, and the S, which is basically such a camera on steroids, sells mostly to the amateur market - I suspect it's the form factor and AF lenses that appeal to such buyers more so than the larger sensor.

 

Whatever the new camera is, it's certainly an interesting decision for Leica - of course it's already been made and we can only wait for the big announcement (or leaks in the days before!).

Edited by earleygallery
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Leica started in the camera business by introducing a tiny portable camera which was a real challenge for the film material available at that time and which demanded additional processing (enlargement). However, that's one recipe they can't apply any more.

 

I even think that a relaunch of the Digilux 2 with its gorgeous lens and its exceptional user interface would make sense, using a state of the art sensor, display, VF and processor.

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Leica started in the camera business by introducing a tiny portable camera which was a real challenge for the film material available at that time and which demanded additional processing (enlargement). However, that's one recipe they can't apply any more.

 

I even think that a relaunch of the Digilux 2 with its gorgeous lens and its exceptional user interface would make sense, using a state of the art sensor, display, VF and processor.

i think you are describing a "Q-Vario"  but because the Q  is supply constrained-  I do not think that is likely at this time.

Edited by prk60091
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In order to keep its attractiveness, the hypothetically relaunched D2 would have to have a sensor of the original size; otherwise the lens would have to be much too large. Hence, there would be no "inner" resemblance to a Q.

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I would certainly be interested in a 'Q-Vario' as a modern version of my wonderful Digilux 2 (I also have an X-Vario, an under-rated camera with an excellent lens, just a pity about the lack of built-in EVF). In view of the FF sensor I doubt if a compact enough lens could be made that covers the full 28-90mm range of the Digilux, but I think a 28-50mm would work (well, it would for me!), and of course the image could still be cropped to give a 75 or 90mm effect with little if any loss of quality. While the X-Vario lens is very good, I would prefer a faster lens in a Q-Vario.

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I would certainly be interested in a 'Q-Vario' as a modern version of my wonderful Digilux 2 (I also have an X-Vario, an under-rated camera with an excellent lens, just a pity about the lack of built-in EVF). In view of the FF sensor I doubt if a compact enough lens could be made that covers the full 28-90mm range of the Digilux, but I think a 28-50mm would work (well, it would for me!), and of course the image could still be cropped to give a 75 or 90mm effect with little if any loss of quality. While the X-Vario lens is very good, I would prefer a faster lens in a Q-Vario.

 

And with that combination you have just designed yet another of Leica's 'parts bin specials' that essentially take bits and pieces that already exist and re-combine them into yet another new camera. The other third of the range comprises of cameras built by Panasonic and coughed on by Leica. What is left relies purely on fanatics and people who still prefer a simpler way of working in the 'M' lineup. And you know what, since the first digital M was announced there is another generation of camera users coming along for whom that simplicity has no meaning or appreciation at all. 

 

If Leica can't explain their so called philosophy through their camera range instead of banging out meaningless delaying tactics to put off the day they go bust then in a couple of years they will be relying on 90 years olds for all their sales.

 

And if an AF M option is in the works I dread to think of the new AF lens prices accompanying it and the way they will go down amongst loyal customers. Leica are furiously paddling themselves up a creek, and it's the poor fools who still appreciate the minor points and advantages that will keep them going, and we the customers will be the end of Leica if we continue to buy the many dead end cameras they introduce. A show of hands, who's expecting or looking forward to another 'X'? Don't encourage them to do it, because they will take your money but they won't be doing you any favours.

 

Steve

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I can't help but think in the way James presents the issue. Look at the list again, and what stands out is the M. 

 

Its soul and origins lie in the simplicity and focus of the M7/MP/M-A. These are cameras which stubbornly resisted what the Japanese were doing with technology. Compare two current film cameras - the M-A and the F6. Leave aside AF and the meter, the M-A doesn't even have a motor wind. 

 

The M9 was (to a degree) faithful to that focussed camera. I think the current M line needs to be brought back to that focus. What the digital transition has done is expose the limitations of the M camera for a full on digital camera - the fixed patch optical viewfinder, limiting the range to 28-90mm. That's awfully limiting, and forcing on live view with the LCD or second rate EVF and video has been less than up to Leica's usual standards. 

 

My pick?  The digital M needs to be refocused on its core values. That must mean updating the viewfinder, but I don't think it will mean AF. I think it will remain true to its heritage, and will be a better camera for it. A company which makes the M-A and the Edition 60 understands this. 

 

The new system might not be a low cost camera at all.  It could well be a full on, full frame system camera with state of the art electronics, AF etc, designed to fill the gap between the S and the T, as I think James is suggesting. It would be liberated from the limitation of RF coupled lenses, and if it could crack the hybrid viewfinder conundrum, it would be a very fine camera indeed. Leica simplicity, S quality lenses, but smaller, M lens compatibility, even proper video?

 

if you remove the limitations of the M system, and then ask what you would want, this becomes very interesting. There would be no reason to compete on price. Leica doesn't now, and it's profitable. We might actually be looking at an entire system, rather than a gap filler, completely unconstrained by the M cameras and it's ovf , brass body and form factor - that would continue with the M(xxx), as an ongoing evolution. In many ways, that camera has reached a point where it's trying to be something it isn't. 

Edited by IkarusJohn
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Just a thought, and by no means a criticism of anyone posting here (I'm as interested in leaks/rumours/speculation as anyone else) but might it just be that Dr Kaufmann and his team know what they are doing?  Leica is profitable after all.

 

(Anyone remember the 'Armchair CEO' thread of, what was it, three or four years ago?  ;))

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And if an AF M option is in the works I dread to think of the new AF lens prices accompanying it and the way they will go down amongst loyal customers. Leica are furiously paddling themselves up a creek, and it's the poor fools who still appreciate the minor points and advantages that will keep them going, and we the customers will be the end of Leica if we continue to buy the many dead end cameras they introduce. A show of hands, who's expecting or looking forward to another 'X'? Don't encourage them to do it, because they will take your money but they won't be doing you any favours.

 

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

A new AF system camera won't need M quality lenses. They'll use digital correction to make up for distortion and other 'defects' and should be able to offer lenses at more competitive prices. 

 

Like you say, I don't see much demand for a mildly updated X camera, or another T for that matter. When you look at the range it would appear that Leica have been chasing sales in the lower mid end of the market, which is odd considering their typical user profile. 

 

It smacks of typical corporate 'quick fix' tactics. Low hanging fruit as some say. Probably to please Blackstone. 

 

I would have thought that concentrating on the higher end serious amateur/pro market would be the way to go, but of course I know nothing. 

Edited by earleygallery
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I can't help but think in the way James presents the issue. Look at the list again, and what stands out is the M. 

 

The new system might not be a low cost camera at all.  It could well be a full on, full frame system camera with state of the art electronics, AF etc, designed to fill the gap between the S and the T, as I think James is suggesting. It would be liberated from the limitation of RF coupled lenses, and if it could crack the hybrid viewfinder conundrum, it would be a very fine camera indeed. Leica simplicity, S quality lenses, but smaller, M lens compatibility, even proper video?

 

 

 

Hi John, yes that's pretty much what I'm getting at. Leica need to make any new system camera a pure stand alone product, and not be held back by trying to make a jack of all trades camera that will appease current T, M, R and S users. 

 

Maybe the time wasn't right for a digital R replacement, but i think it is now. It might not be a DSLR but it shouldn't be another compromise camera either. 

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Just a thought, and by no means a criticism of anyone posting here (I'm as interested in leaks/rumours/speculation as anyone else) but might it just be that Dr Kaufmann and his team know what they are doing?  Leica is profitable after all.

 

(Anyone remember the 'Armchair CEO' thread of, what was it, three or four years ago?  ;))

 

Hi Steve, 

 

Yes I remember that thread! 

 

However I'm not sure I'd agree that Leica do know what they're doing lately. That's a very large range of low/middle market cameras, considering how Leica position themselves these days, and they've gone down a few dead ends, of which T looks to be the latest. I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the S line either. 

 

However, yes, this is very much an 'armchair CEO' response, I have no factual sales figures to base my opinions upon, and I await the new camera with great interest. 

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An R-like system would not sell more than the R i'm afraid. Also, the new system must not cannibalize the M that will keep an optical and/or electronic rangefinder. The new system will then be an FF mirrorless w/o rangefinder and with a couple of Japan made AF lenses and adapters for M, R and T lenses. Pure speculation from my part.

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In 2011 I had an X1 for a short period, but wanted higher dynamic range and a wider lens. I got what was available at the time, M9-P with an Elmarit 28/2.8 lens. Today I would have gone for the Q.

From what I read here in LUF the selling point for the Q and Sony A7 is the image quality. It looks like people are willing to pay for the best, the brand is less important.

p.s. I remember the 'Armchair CEO' thread too.

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An R-like system would not sell more than the R i'm afraid. Also, the new system must not cannibalize the M that will keep an optical and/or electronic rangefinder. The new system will then be an FF mirrorless w/o rangefinder and with a couple of Japan made AF lenses and adapters for M, R and T lenses. Pure speculation from my part.

This would be a big big mistake. If they 'protect' the M by making a purposely limited camera they are doomed!

 

It's time for some forward thinking and innovation.

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Forgot to say. The new system won't be more successful than the T (why a Leica instead of Sony/Zeiss?) and Leica will be saved by the M as usual. Pure speculation again.

 

Maybe a 16 bit per channel raw (like the dmr) can help in differentiating in respect of the 11 bit compressed raw from Sony ;-)

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This would be a big big mistake. If they 'protect' the M by making a purposely limited camera they are doomed!

 

It's time for some forward thinking and innovation.

 

 

How to think forward at competitive prices when the competitors are called Sony and Zeiss? By persuading Panasonic to make an FF mirrorless and a dozen FF lenses? Why would Panasonic be interested in any way?

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16 bit vs 42MP for a fraction of the price... Do you think you would bet on Leica? 

 

Well, assuming that the base camera could use most of the parte from the Q, the price could be in line with the A7rII. For most of the purposes, 24 MP with  adeguate color output and image quality can be more appealing than the Sony offer (not to mention the user interface).

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