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Lens prices have jumped!


ShivaYash

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I'm playing catch up after some time off from the forums.

 

I am shocked at the price of second hand lens. I paid something like £375 for my 35f2 (IV) about 12 years old, and about 6-7 years ago, sold my 50f2 for about £500. Now the same lens, pre ASPH is £1200?? WTF happened?

 

 

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Doubtfully, unless the A7RII works well with WA RF. We'll know soon enough.

 

I didn't specifically say ultra-wides where there is currently a challenge due to the lack of micro-lenses in the sensor. However this is less of a challenge on lenses 35 and up. Also with the new backlit sensors coming to market, and potentially even curved sensors, we should see improvements using existing ultra-wides.

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12 years is a long time in the digital world. In 2003:

 

- Leica still claimed a digital M was "not possible with current sensor technology"

- The DMR back for the R system was not yet on the market

- Leica had not even yet introduced the ground-breaking (analog controls) Digilux 2 advanced P&S (via Panasonic - 2004)

- Epson had not announced or delivered the R-D1 - first digital rangefinder and first digital with M-mount (2004)

- In the US at least, Leica was discounting NEW lenses 10-15 percent (already at low prices compared to today) at Leica Days in camera stores - you could get a new 35 SUMMILUX f/1.4 ASPH for about $2200 or less.

- Leica was losing money regularly and in deep financial straits - I forget the exact details, but they were along the lines of being down to less than €10 million in reserves, and losing over €1 million per month. They had to submit a filing with the German finance regulators.

- Andreas Kaufmann had not yet purchased any interest in Leica.

 

In other words, Leica was a sinking ship in a digital tide, and the rats deserted, selling their lenses into the used market at low prices. I also acquired a 35 v.4 Summicron at that time for $US 600. 90 Summicrons were $650-900; my "new-old-stock" 21mm f/2.8 was $1200.

 

Since then:

 

2004 - Dr. Kaufmann buys 27% of Leica (eventually reaching 100%, taking the company private)

2004 - Epson announces the R-D1, and Leica hedges their previous comments about RFs and digital, announcing that they are starting work on a digital rangefinder.

2005 - Kaufmann brings in Swiss turn-around expert Dr. Josef Spichtig as CEO, to "reorientate" the company's resources and oversee the creation of the M8 (Stefan Daniel was the direct M8 project manager).

2006 - Leica introduces the M8 - first Leica-made digital rangefinder. Generally successful after some teething problems.

2006 - Leica begins raising new lens prices to 1) reflect actual manufacturing costs and 2) see what the market will bear. A process still on-going. Leica Day discounts end.

2009 - The full-frame M9 is a sell-out hit, vastly increasing the market for M lenses. At the same time, Leica cuts back on lens production to devote factory staff to meet M9 demand and work on new projects such as the S. Some lenses are backordered 18 months or more. The shortage of new lenses drives new owners (especially in Asia) to bid up the prices of any M lens available. Used prices jump ~50%. Inventory at KEH (a used-gear internet dealer in the U.S.) drops from about 75 M lenses at any one time to as low as 24.

2011 - Leica's lens production gets back into gear - used lens market mostly levels off at the higher level, although they still increase slowly as new lens prices go up annually.

2014/2015 - Euro's weakness allows/forces Leica to offer the first new-lens discounts in the U.S. in nearly 10 years  - $250 rebates in 2014, 12% discounts today. Used lens prices sag a bit as owners take the opportunity to trade up, and dealers who price used gear as a percentage of new have to make adjustments.

Edited by adan
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The years around 2000 were very good for buying certain Leica lenses, for the reasons well explained by Adan : I bought a Summilux 35 unasph for 600 Euros around, an uncommon Elmarit 28 V1 for 700.... in those years, only the real collectibles had high prices, which had a constant surge from the first '80s  (I still go crazy when think that bought a Noctilux 1,2 in 1983 for 750 Euro around, selling it one year after for 50 Euros more.... :wacko:  )

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The year 2008 was good enough for buying second hand lenses, and also 2009, also during the last four months and practically the same for the first quarter of 2010, when lenses went out to finance M9 bodies. Demand has softened lately.

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The prices on QM2 items has really taken a hit lately and their easy availability reflect the over-optimistic sales forecasts of a few years back that led to increased production. Suspect that M lens incompatibilities of the FF Sony 'a' platform has exerted some downward pressure since many had hoped that they would work well together.

 

-Multi-platform users not particularly married to their Leica RFs have seen truly great optics from Zeiss and Sigma rival or exceed the best from Solms/Wetzlar.

 

-Another factor may be the proliferation of fixed FL mirrorless; I had a Ricoh GR before picking up the MM v.1 and see no reason for a 28mm optic.

 

-The vintage Leica M market has taken a bigger hit because the run-up was particularly crazed. Buyers are finding that the cost of a good CLA on 50 year-old legacy glass doesn't come cheaply and some adjustment for digital RF is often needed. Only for the connoisseur.

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I still feel sore at selling a Tri-Elmar for 900 Euro in 2008... :angry: :angry:

Ha, I sold 2 of them (v.1 and v.2), plus 21/2.8ASPH, 35/2ASPH, 35/1.4ASPH, 90/2ASPH,135/3.4APO all before Leica jacked up the prices.  And that's only the newer lenses I sold.  If I had kept them all and sold them one year ago today I could have paid for the air-cooled Porsche whose value has gone up 30% since then.

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Jeez, looks like I got into Leicas at the wrong time (just a few years ago).  I'm having a hard time believing that these lenses sold for as low as you guys are indicating.  Makes me wonder if used lenses will ever fall to those price levels again within my lifetime.  I've noticed that second hand lenses right now seem to be lower than what I've been tracking for the last several months.  Is it safe to assume that second hand prices will rebound with the release of the new M?

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Is it safe to assume that second hand prices will rebound with the release of the new M?

 

Depends on what they introduce.

An updated Noctilux is rumored and that should depress the present Nocti prices further, whilst a 35 ASPH Summicron redesign free of focus shift should do even more damage to valuation of the present model, as would a new 50 Summicron non-APO. Stellar SEMs have not helped the larger Summilux and Elmarit WA lenses retain their value.

 

The MATE was incredibly complex and short-lived. It would be very costly to duplicate again; hence its present valuation. The best Leica R glass has also retained its value because they were made in limited quantities and special in their own rights.

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as would a new 50 Summicron non-APO.

 

What might that be? FLE? Just a cosmetic refresh? Leica (Karbe) has said little can be done to improve the current Summicron. It's not like they can do a non-APO and sell it by saying 'it's not as good as the APO, but it's cheaper'. I ask because I'm thinking about something other than my V4, and I remembered that image of Leica lenses with the mystery 35 cron people were posting about. Leica can auto-generate speculation without effort.

 

s-a

 

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What might that be? FLE? Just a cosmetic refresh? Leica (Karbe) has said little can be done to improve the current Summicron.

 

 

One that doesn't shift so damned much on digital between ƒ/2.8 and 5.6, perhaps?

 

The v.4 was released 36 years ago. Considering the engineering feat of the 50 APO, Karbe can do better if he wanted to. 

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One that doesn't shift so damned much on digital between ƒ/2.8 and 5.6, perhaps?

 

The v.4 was released 36 years ago. Considering the engineering feat of the 50 APO, Karbe can do better if he wanted to. 

 

The 50 Summilux or APO is the 'better'.

When Karbe says little can be done to improve the current Summicron, I'm sure what he means is little can be done without significantly increasing engineering complexity and price.

 

 

 

Anyways, what I would like to see is a Super Elmar at 14mm. And a return of a 75mm Summilux.

Edited by Mornnb
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One that doesn't shift so damned much on digital between ƒ/2.8 and 5.6, perhaps?

 

The v.4 was released 36 years ago. Considering the engineering feat of the 50 APO, Karbe can do better if he wanted to. 

I shoot film myself but I'll do a test today and see if I see any visible change for me between those apertures. Digital is a different kettle of fish of course.

 

Can't argue about the time. Someone here recently posted comparison images showing better flare response with the V5 but that could be entirely coating performance. Maybe add an ASPH element; something well short of FLE as a cost constraint.

 

Thanks,

s-a

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