new Leica Camera idea: Square Format RF camera

[earleygallery]

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I have a Bronica ETRS which is 645 (horizontal). It was a good choice for wedding photography as it gives 3 more frames per roll (less film and changes required). Used with a prism finder of course. The format matches typical print sizes of 5X7 or 8X6 without cropping which also made life easier - a great wedding camera!

 

However, the square format has a benefit which wasn't apparent to me at first - the freedom of leaving a waist level finder 6X6 camera on a tripod and arranging your subjects and making eye contact at the point of shooting.

 

I like the idea of a square format WLF digital camera myself!

[Peter H]

.............

 

However, the square format has a benefit which wasn't apparent to me at first - the freedom of leaving a waist level finder 6X6 camera on a tripod and arranging your subjects and making eye contact at the point of shooting.

 

...............

 

James, I don't understand this bit. Why is the square format an advantage in this situation? Can't you do exactly the same thing with any format?

 

Anyway, my first camera was a Rolleicord, a very wonderful thing, so I still find the square format completely natural and very attractive.

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[earleygallery]

With a square format WLF camera you can set it on a tripod and not worry about whether the end photo will be portrait or landscape format - no need to keep tilting the head - you can glance down at the screen to check comp/focus but otherwise look at your subjects.

 

It's a nice advantage which I only appreciated and missed when I switched to the ETRS. But the ETRS had other benefits and I rarely used it on a tripod so it also made for more 'reportage' style images.

Edited July 27, 2015 by earleygallery

[Peter H]

Ah yes, I see what you mean James. Quite right too.

[jankap]

The lenses provide a circle. Why not capture all of it?

 

Exactly, so we should propose a circular sensor. All, what the lens provides on the sensor!

 

The great advantage would be, that a tilted exposure can be rotated without crop loss. No artificial horizons necessary any more.

 

Not only 36 x 24 mm (3 x 2) is possible. Also 30 x 30 mm (1 x 1), 38 x 21 mm (16 x 9) and even 39 x 13 mm (3 x 1) would be. 

Jan

[pico]

I have to believe you all are joking

[Bill W]

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Somehow I doubt a square format sensor would fit in the current M body. Here we go.....

[Jeff S]

Exactly, so we should propose a circular sensor. All, what the lens provides on the sensor!

 

 

The Kodak 1 from 1888 produced circular photos …..  http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kodak_No._1

 

A hundred shots per roll, but processing slowed a bit due to having to send the whole camera in.  

 

Jeff

[adan]

thanks for posting that Pico. Seeing the circle like that- I imagine the far edges wouldn't necessarily be that bad would they? It can't be much worse than whats already in the exteme corners could it?

 

 

Not only much worse - but possibly non-existent. There may be no image at all in the corners. Here's what you get using a format too big for a lens's coverage (Emmett Gowin, using smaller-format lens on sheet film): https://paw.princeton.edu/issues/2009/10/21/pages/4373/3.-Gowin_4.jpg

 

For a limited range of artistic purposes it may be effective, but as the only working capability for a camera, it would be a laughingstock.

 

As already calculated, for existing lenses made for 24 x 36, a square image area of about 30mm x 30mm would use the circular imaging area with comparable corner performance (tha image diagonal fits into the circle in the same way).

 

 

@ PeterH - your math agrees. But it is better (or worse) than that. To get a square image from a 24 x 36 sensor, it must be cropped to 24 x 24mm, or 576 square mm area. About 12 Mpixels using an M9 (16 Mpixels with an M typ 240). A 30 x 30mm sensor using the pixel pitch of the M CMOS (6 microns) would equate to (let's see how good MY math skills are!) - 25 Mpixels. About what one gets cropping a Leica S to a square, and twice that of an M9 cropped.

 

I like square pictures (not to the exclusion of Barnack format, which I like also). Speaking of the Leica S - when it was first announced that it would be a "new format", I hoped for a square, or at least the option (available in Hasselblad's CFV backs, and a number of cheap P&S cameras) to crop and view in the 1:1 format. Alas, Leica was not that adventurous.

 

Eventually, I quit wasting time dreaming, and just got a real film Hasselblad V-series....it (and/or Mamiya 6s, C330s, Rolleiflexes, etc.) exist now and for real.

Edited July 29, 2015 by adan

[Exodies]

<snip>

For a limited range of artistic purposes it [the circular sensor] may be effective, but as the only working capability for a camera, it would be a laughingstock.

<snip>

But as you could crop it to the same pixel count and shape as you get today with the M240, there's not much room for laughter.

[adan]

I wasn't talking about a circular sensor - please don't add words to my quotes.

[Exodies]

Oh sorry. I misunderstood completely.

[jankap]

No, no, you understood correctly. See your post 2.

Don´t you think, that in this thread we can start the development of the new series Leica O.

The criterium of this series will be "Decide later". That means, why decide during the exposure, if one can delay the format decision. 

Namely, until the development in the Dark Room or the Light Room.

 

Square is not so very good, I believe. If you visit a museum, you seldom find pictures in square format. So cropping the square is necessary, throwing away lens performance.

With a round sensor one could deliver all formats in an optimal way.

Jan

[Jeff S]

No, no, you understood correctly. See your post 2.

 

He misunderstood Andy, and that's what he was pointing out.  Exodies' opinion is one thing, but changing someone else's quote to make a point is entirely different.

 

Jeff

[jankap]

He misunderstood Andy, and that's what he was pointing out.  

Jeff

I knew this of course.

I tried to take him on the right course again.

Jan

[Exodies]

I thought my addition in square brackets was supplying the context for Andy's comment which came in the previous messages and the parts I had snipped. Apparently not. We have two intertwined discussions, the Leica O, and lenses which don't fill the sensor.

[AlanG]

The lenses provide a circle. Why not capture all of it?

Sorry, I see this was mentioned already.... No delete function anymore?

 

Kodak's first camera shot round photos and you can see how long they stuck with that idea.  The typical photographer/consumer does not want either round photos with a lot of white space or to have to crop every photo. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by AlanG

[Exodies]

I agree, it wasn't much fun in the film era, but with digital and presets, you can get your rectangles without even thinking about it.

[jankap]

The typical photographer/consumer does not want either round photos with a lot of white space or to have to crop every photo. 

 

A circular sensor would be the first step. The output must not be circular. Have you ever seen circular PCs, smartphones or printer paper? 

In post 25 I have pointed out, how flexible a circular sensor would be.

By the way I forgot to mention the format 34 x 26 mm (4 x 3).

 

Cropping is normal. The first cropping you perform during the exposure. This thread starts with a square sensor. Cropping will be standard for this one too.

Jan

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[mjh]

However, the square format has a benefit which wasn't apparent to me at first - the freedom of leaving a waist level finder 6X6 camera on a tripod and arranging your subjects and making eye contact at the point of shooting.

I’ve always thought that was the main reason a square format got chosen in the first place. Now with an articulated display you can enjoy the same freedom with a rectangular aspect ratio so this is no longer a reason to re-introduce a square image format.