Curious moderation

[stunsworth]

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The thread on the Greek Euro situation was accepted as long as it criticised left wing governments (I.e. The Greeks). As soon as it began to criticise right wing governments it was closed down. This was after Jaap has said the original thread was ok provided personal insults didn't begin to be made. No such insults were made. 

 

This is is not the first time that a thread critical of right wing politics has been closed down. I expect this thread to be deleted also. 

 

Maybe it's time to move on. 

[IkarusJohn]

I hope it wasn't locked because of my exchange with Peter. It was hardly controversial. My problem with this rule, and the moderation, is I understand this forum is about Leica, but it's also a nice place to be. It seems a shame we can't enjoy wider exchanges with people whose company we enjoy and views we respect. 

 

I do understand it makes moderation hard. 

Edited July 18, 2015 by IkarusJohn

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[earleygallery]

The no politics rule is no politics that a Mod doesn't object to.

 

The thread about Euro copyright was obviously a political thread but allowed to run.

 

Either we allow political discussion or we don't. It doesn't help to have exceptions.

[earleygallery]

The no politics rule is no politics that a Mod doesn't object to.

 

The thread about Euro copyright was obviously a political thread but allowed to run.

 

Either we allow political discussion or we don't. It doesn't help to have exceptions.

[stunsworth]

I hope it wasn't locked because of my exchange with Peter. It was hardly controversial. My problem with this rule, and the moderation, is I understand this forum is about Leica, but it's also a nice place to be. It seems a shame we can't enjoy wider exchanges with people whose company we enjoy and views we respect. 

 

I do understand it makes moderation hard. 

I can't see why. Disagreement isn't the same as insult. 

[pico]

The thread on the Greek Euro situation was accepted as long as it criticised left wing governments (I.e. The Greeks). As soon as it began to criticise right wing governments it was closed down.

 

I did not see that polarization. Not at all. If we drill into the situation, we must include the banks who promote the failure of Greece: banks which profit immensely and avoid any penalties due. There is no left/right in that case. There is merely unregulated bank manipulation, theft and corruption. Regulate the banks.

.

Edited July 18, 2015 by pico

[pico]

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The subject so far has been about a global economic phenomena evinced by the Greek crisis.

The thread should not be locked due to our mutual concern and our  sympathy for the Greeks,

nor for exposing the real entities who make them suffer.

 

If moderators think concern is politics, then we have a window into their prejudices. Let it show.

.

Edited July 18, 2015 by pico

[jaapv]

The thread was allowed by me because it was discussing a world event, and originally in a rather non-political/economics manner. The thread was closed by agreement between moderators because it had slipped into a general British left-right political discussion.

The last post about Greece was by Pico, #27.

After that it was a discussion about Thatcherism, pro and con.

[Manoleica]

The Greeks have been told to Sell some of their Crown Jewels as they say, that's exactly what Thatcher did in theUk! Greece, UK, Europe as whole is worldwide news and a topic for discussion..

Thatcher is long gone, as is the Model T but we surely can still have a discussion on their impact! L

[jaapv]

I was not aware that the UK was a Euro member in the 1970ies.

 

World events are fine, and as the moderators have sometimes read a newspaper they are well aware that politics in general can be part of the event, reason why we try and apply the rules leniently in such cases. However, when the original subject is lost in a fundamental political discussion, we have no choice.

[Manoleica]

Thatcher is long gone as is the Model T, but surely we can discuss their impact..

Whether the Uk was a member of the Euro Club in the 70's I really cannot recall, overall though it was a great and lively discussion, and without doubt more respectful than some photographic Posts, replies and comebacks.. At the end of WW11 when the troops were coming back from Europe theu had 1000's of ex German army Leica's as trophies, they were told to dump them in the English Channel,

due to the absolute hatred of Germany at that time. My point is that was a good decision, closing the Post was taking away Free Speech. The Post itself would have died a natural death within a very short time.. L

Edited July 18, 2015 by manoleica

[Guest]

The thread on the Greek Euro situation was accepted as long as it criticised left wing governments (I.e. The Greeks). As soon as it began to criticise right wing governments it was closed down. This was after Jaap has said the original thread was ok provided personal insults didn't begin to be made. No such insults were made. 

 

This is is not the first time that a thread critical of right wing politics has been closed down. I expect this thread to be deleted also. 

 

Maybe it's time to move on. 

Yep, moving on to action maybe.

 

Finding a Greek in need and send him/her a check.

Germany has to raise at least 22 billion euros additional taxes to help the Greek population of about 11 million.

Feel free to join in

Could be that you receive thanks from your recipient.

 

Could be that you receive thank you clicks here, as symbolic sharing of your contribution.

[Peter H]

 

 

The thread was allowed by me because it was discussing a world event, and originally in a rather non-political/economics manner. The thread was closed by agreement between moderators because it had slipped into a general British left-right political discussion.

The last post about Greece was by Pico, #27.

After that it was a discussion about Thatcherism, pro and con.

 

I feel bound to say that your timing was curious and more than a little hurtful given that the last post  that referred to Thatcher was an attempt at self-moderation, and had effectively ended that strand of the conversation, which had, by the way, been conducted in a friendly manner despite expressing strongly opposing opinions. 

 

So, it had been polite, and had ended, and then you chose to close the thread. 

 

You know that I have great admiration for the difficult unpaid work the moderators do in sustaining this forum. But the fear with which you view the slightest move into political territory that you find uncomfortable is quite unpalatable. You may not be aware, since none of us really are all of the time, that strongly political views are being expressed throughout this forum within a range of topics, but it seems that there is a particular brand of politics that disturbs you; when people are open and deliberate about it.

 

And when an event as monumentally important as the Greek crisis occurs, it is impossible to discuss it without some historical reference. Unless you as moderators allow a little polite digression to take place around a central subject, between mature people who are able to moderate their own behaviour, I fear that this forum will complete the journey to becoming a parody of what it ought to be.

 

I have always found this particularly distasteful and upsetting given the Leica tradition of following and trying to reflect the truth however difficult and controversial, which appears to count for little anymore.

 

It is a great shame.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Peter H

[jaapv]

I strongly resent the implications of personal bias. If my integrity is called into question I will step down.

[Manoleica]

Pride, Power, Integrity.. Just reopen the Post. L

[Peter H]

I strongly resent the implications of personal bias. If my integrity is called into question I will step down.

 

Jaap, your integrity is not in question. 

 

Neither is my post directed at you personally, but at the moderators as a group. I use the term "you" in the plural. Yet even as a group, I am not questioning anyone's integrity.

 

But to be personal for a moment, and to make it plain, I have great respect for your integrity Jaap, and for your fair-mindedness and honesty.

 

Nevertheless I question the judgement of the moderators as a group on this occasion. Not in terms of integrity or any other personal quality, none of which are in doubt. Simply their judgement on this particular issue.

[jaapv]

 

but it seems that there is a particular brand of politics that disturbs you

 

The no politics rule is no politics that a Mod doesn't object to

 

The thread on the Greek Euro situation was accepted as long as it criticised left wing governments (I.e. The Greeks). As soon as it began to criticise right wing governments it was closed down.

Those remarks (by different posters)  are about integrity 

[Manoleica]

+1

[Peter H]

Those remarks (by different posters)  are about integrity 

 

You refer to this statement of mine:  "..but it seems that there is a particular brand of politics that disturbs you..."

 

To complete it:  "... ; when people are open and deliberate about it."

 

And that, I believe is true, but it doesn't call into question anyone's integrity. If I wished to do that I would do so openly and clearly.

 

I am, however, suggesting that all sorts of political opinions are expressed in the normal conversation that goes on throughout the forum. This is normal and unavoidable because it is impossible to live a life and talk about it without incidentally expressing political positions that often are only apparent to other people who perhaps see the world slightly differently from us. We all do it. We can't help it. It has nothing to do with integrity, fairness or anything else of that nature.

 

​But since this does go on all the time it seems sad to me (and this is my point) that when we are open about our political views and express them clearly, it is only then that the moderators feel that they need to intervene. 

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[jaapv]

You wouldn't have written that had you read post #9

 

And yes, we do move in when a thread gets fully political, based on sad experience. We lost too many valuable members because of political fights.