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APO 50mm Summicron Flare Issue


ivohula

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Kind of like when you find a carton of old milk in the back of the fridge.  You still, just can't, keep yourself from smelling it.   ;)

Oh, boy, let's not get into "what's in my fridge" stuff. Although, it might actually be an interesting, well read/liked thread.

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Kind of like when you find a carton of old milk in the back of the fridge.  You still, just can't, keep yourself from smelling it.   ;)

Or another disgusting analogy; picking a scab.

I can't believe I actually went and looked for a date stamp on my 'grey box' this morning....good grief! 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I held off posting about my APO-50 Crappicron/Flaricron flare problems until this issue had been resolved to my satisfaction.  

 

My purpose for posting this is to confirm that the flare issue with earlier serial number units but even 2015 MFG dates (whatever that really means) of the 2.0/50 APO-Summicron (rebuilt or not) is NOT fully resolved yet although fortunately it is for me. I received two lenses in a row that were faulty!

 

This is my experience of two new lenses (with earlier serial numbers but 2015 MFG on the box stickers) were unusable with the lenses pointed anywhere near the sun.

 

Excuse the small file size photos but I wanted to get them all onto the one post.

 

I purchased a brand new 2.0/50 APO-Crappicron (0429xxxx, March 2015 MFG date) in May this year for a to-good-to-ignore price.  However I was very surprised to see how readily it flared on the first day I used it.  I was shooting in bright low morning sun along the bay with a lot of glare, and although somewhat disconcerted I thought I might have just been pushing the lens too far: 

 

50 APO-Summicron, Monochrom

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So I tested it against my 50 Summilux FLE (tripod mounted, here sun to upper left corner, with and without filters, with and without hoods extended (a bit better with the little 2.8/50 Elmar-M hood fitted). Big Fail:

 

50 Summilux ASPH, M240

 

 

50 APO-Summicron, M240

 

 

​I spoke with the with dealer and Leica (including the head of Leica Australia) and sent the sample photos. They were VERY helpful. APO-Crappicron promptly went to Leica Australia who confirmed flare problem against another APO-50, returned it to Germany, and sent the new one out to me (04189xxx, MFG May 2015).  However, on more use and testing I quickly found that it too flared when compared to the Summilux (tripod mounted, here glaring afternoon sun right upper corner of lens)

 

50 Summilux ASPH, M240

 

 

50 APO-Summicron, M240

 

 

So, in frustration I again contacted Leica Australia with the sample photos from my APO-Flaricron. These last photos were also sent to the APO-50 lens design team who confirmed that the lens was not performing to specification and wanted it sent to them.  This time I insisted on a latest serial number lens irrespective of MFG date on barcode/sn sticker on box. I waited a week until Leica could source a latest sn lens (0458xxxx, 30 June 2015 MFG), test it, and send it to me. 

 

I've not yet had an opportunity to compare it directly against the Summilux but I shot with it for a few hours yesterday in bright sunlight and could not fault it. It flared only a few times in situations where I expected almost any lens would do so.  Unlike this lens, the previous two units (especially my first one 0429xxxx) proved to be virtually unusable when pointed anywhere near the sun.

 

Will report back when I can test it more formally but the weather has closed in for the next few days.

 

I should say that Leica Australia were outstanding with their support.  Great communication, rapid transport of the lenses too and from Leica and my office, appropriate apologies and acceptance of the problem, no crap excuses, and fortunately not even a suggestion from them of sending these lenses back for service rather than exchange for a perfect unit to my satisfaction.  Couriers collected and delivered the lenses at Leica's expense with overnight deliveries.

 

Now I'm very happy with my current APO-50 lens and especially with Leica Australia for their support (they don't always get much praise),

 

However, I'm much less impressed with Leica Germany because of the ongoing problems with this lens model. This problem continues to be reported with lenses form Australia, Canada, New Zealand (my first lens was sourced there), and USA that I'm aware of. I could not even speculate as to whether this is a design fault (although there are clearly units that perform flawlessly),  a QA issue with production batches, or tight manufacturing tolerances not achieved in individual units, or whatever. This Forum would only represent a small number of users for what is a relatively rare lens so we really have no idea as to whether these are genuine issues or just uncommon sporadic cases. I suspect that it is probably still a bit more flare-prone than some other 50s and in more challenging situations I may fit another hood regardless. 

Edited by MarkP
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Mark, you are now the third reported user in this thread to have been sold a NEW 04189xxx lens that has flare issues...

 

 

In this thread we have evidence of 4 flare proned lenses with 04189xxxx sn sold recently as NEW. 2 in US , 1 in Aus and 1 in Canada.

 

Why the 04189xxxx batch? Is this old stock that was retrofitted then sold as NEW?

 

Curious to know if Leica will replace my 2nd flare proned copy which is also a 04189xxxx sn with a newer sn...?

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I would not buy a 50 APO-Summicron with sn 04189xxx. We could assume that there were anything up to 1000 units with this sn batch (although it may be much less) and we have a fault rate of at least 0.3-4%. We don't know how components/production/assembly of that batch overlapped with lower or higher serial numbers, and of course lenses with other serial numbers continue to be affected either systemically or sporadically (including the 0429xxx unit I was initially supplied with).  Again, my faulty lenses were all marked with 2015 MFG dates.

 

However, I would be surprised that if your 04189xxx lens was flaring that Leica wold not replace your lens with a new serial number unit.  Both Leica Australia and Germany were most responsive and prompt to fix this problem for me.

 

I think caveat emptor very much applies to this lens.  Anyone about to put their cash down for one should first test it in challenging lighting against a known 50mm lens for comparison.  Having said that, it's a fabulous lens and despite the dramas I'm glad I bought it.

Edited by MarkP
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Although I keep getting pangs of GAS for the 50 mm APO Summicron, I think I will stick with my 50 mm ASPH Summilux which I really cannot fault under any circumstance.  I would really regret having to go through your situation having say traded my Summilux and perhaps other decent lenses (or a tidy sum of cash).   

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Hi Carduelis,

 

I know exactly what you mean. There was no way I was going to part with any of my other 50s (including the Summilux), and I did wait two years after the APO-50's  release until I decided to buy one (at a not-to-be-refused price).

 

I thought that with an M240 and Monochrome v1 that I'd not buy the Monochrome typ 246 at this stage with a new M due for release soon. Although the type 246 has very useful features there is only a small incremental improvement in IQ (probably non-existent at base ISO where I do most of my work) so I went for the lens (perhaps also a small incremental improvement in IQ :rolleyes:).

 

However, apart form more general use and landscapes, I have a documentary architectural project (in the style of the Bechers) I want to undertake, do not want to move to medium format film or digital), and the len's resolution, flat focus field and edge-to-edge performance on a Monochrome v1 would suit perfectly.

 

Regards,

Mark

Edited by MarkP
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Hi Carduelis,

 

I know exactly what you mean. There was no way I was going to part with any of my other 50s (including the Summilux), and I did wait two years after the APO-50's  release until I decided to buy one (at a not-to-be-refused price).

 

I thought that with an M240 and Monochrome v1 that I'd not buy the Monochrome typ 246 at this stage with a new M due for release soon. Although the type 246 has very useful features there is only a small incremental improvement in IQ (probably non-existent at base ISO where I do most of my work) so I went for the lens (perhaps also a small incremental improvement in IQ :rolleyes:).

 

However, apart form more general use and landscapes, I have a documentary architectural project (in the style of the Bechers) I want to undertake, do not want to move to medium format film or digital), and the len's resolution, flat focus field and edge-to-edge performance on a Monochrome v1 would suit perfectly.

 

Regards,

Mark

 

The 50 mm APO comes with a final quality assurance certificate signed by a tester at Leica.  Would you know if it was the same person that did the final testing on the lenses with flare?  Please don't post the persons' name, I'm not out for a witch hunt.  But considering how embarrassing it was for Leica to have to stop production and recall such an expensive, "high optical standards" lens when it first came out, it's shocking that samples with flare issues are still making it down to the consumer.  Flare should be the first and last thing the final tester checks before signing the card.

Best,

Steve

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Hi Carduelis,

... I have a documentary architectural project (in the style of the Bechers) I want to undertake, do not want to move to medium format film or digital), and the len's resolution, flat focus field and edge-to-edge performance on a Monochrome v1 would suit perfectly.

 

Regards,

Mark

 

I can well understand your reasoning for having the lens as described.  As landscape photography appeals to me the most, it is those optical qualities I tend to favour and having seen those MTF profiles for the lens ...  

 

I think Steve above makes a good point above.  How can the checker miss such issues with flare and then sign it off? 

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A tale of two lenses.  A few weeks ago I bought a new APO 50 (serial number 04296xxx, manufactured at the end of Feb, 2015) from a dealer in Germany.  Until now, I've been using a Summarit 50 F2.5, which I purchased new over a year ago.  I have not noticed a practical flare issue during the last year of use with the Summarit. These lenses are on opposite sides of the quality spectrum, but I did some flare torture testing this morning, regardless.  The pictures were taken with a tripod with my M240 (DNG, ISO = 200, Daylight WB) at around 10 AM.  In the first set, the sun was just outside to the left and above the frame.

 

Summarit, no shade.

 

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WOW.  I've never seen such flaring in a year of use, and it gives you an idea of how torturous this test was.

 

Summarit, with shade.

 

 

As you can see, the sun is in a very bad position for flaring here.  Now the APO:

 

APO no shade:

 

 

APO with shade (built in lens shade):

 

 

There is some flare with the APO that the lens shade reduced, but overall, much less than the summarit.  And I've not observed a flare problem using the Summarit for over a year.  In my next post, I've repeated the test with the camera turned further away from the sun.

 

Best,

Steve

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Now with the camera turned about 90 degrees.

 

Summarit no shade:

 

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Summarit with shade:

 

 

APO no shade:

 

 

APO shade:

 

 

My conclusion:  The summarit still had flare that the shade got rid of.  I aways shoot with the lens shade (hood), anyways.  Saying that, relative to the summarit (which is at the low end of the Leica line), the flare on my copy of the APO 50 is well controlled.  Not to mention the lack of distortion with the APO.  I don't know if my APO copy is better or worse than others, and I don't have a higher level 50 mm than my summarit to compare it to, but regardless, I'm happy with the flare properties of my APO 50, and I hope others find a copy they are happy with as well.

 

Best,

Steve

 

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Thanks for sharing. All lenses do flare more or less but i can't recall having got blue reflections like those of your Summarit above. Are you sure it is OK?

Hmm.  The sun was *just* out of the frame and I believe the blue is from the sunlight shining directly on the coating. In the second picture, the Summarit's hood could only block a little bit of the sun, and it's a pretty deep hood.  Do you think I should send it to Leica?  Has anyone else seen this?

Best,

Steve

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Hmm.  The sun was *just* out of the frame and I believe the blue is from the sunlight shining directly on the coating. In the second picture, the Summarit's hood could only block a little bit of the sun, and it's a pretty deep hood.  Do you think I should send it to Leica?  Has anyone else seen this?

Best,

Steve

I think it's allowed to post links to other reviews on this forum.  So here goes, the blue ghost flare with this lens has been seen in the two reviews linked at the bottom of this post.  I kind of think its a property of this lens.  What do you guys think?

Best,

Steve

 

 

http://www.ventspleen.com/?p=109

 

http://www.35mmc.com/12/05/2015/leica-50mm-f2-5-summarit-m/

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Interesting indeed. May i ask the first digits of your serial number? Just tried on a 500w halogen lamp with my 4207*** but it does not show that kind of reflection.

Its 4140xxx.  Is this similar to yours?  Also, when you get the chance, could you try the sun in the morning or perhaps afternoon?  I may be sending this one to Leica.

Best and thanks,

Steve

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Well the 50/2.5 has become my standard "75" on the Fuji X-E2 so i don't use it on full frame Ms anymore but i've been using a lot of 50's in my life and i have never seen this kind of blue ghost flare so far. I would ask Leica certainly.

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