SideB Posted June 17, 2015 Share #1 Posted June 17, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I stumbled purely by chance across this auction of collectible Leica cameras which is taking place on July 1 in Newbury, Berkshire. The estimates seem very low for such items. For example an ex-Bundeswehr M4-P with similarly marked Summilux lens is estimated at £150 - £200. There are dozens of Leica Eignentum and Leih marked cameras too. The only ones with high estimates are WWII Heer and Luftwaffe marked cameras. The auction house SAS holds regular camera sales so how can it be so far off the market or is there some deception going on here? It would only take a couple of searches on Google to work out that these cameras are worth much more than the estimates. Unless, of course, the bottom has recently fallen out of the collectors' market and I failed to notice. Does anyone know if this is a single owner collection or if Leica is selling off the contents of its stockroom and trying to do so without anyone noticing? http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/special-auction-services/catalogue-id-srspe10110/lot-a05ce89a-9ea7-4cdd-9f35-a4b100add724 http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/special-auction-services/catalogue-id-srspe10110?searchterm=leica&wheretosearch=http%3a%2f%2fwww.the-saleroom.com%2fen-gb%2fauction-catalogues%2fspecial-auction-services%2fcatalogue-id-srspe10110&SaleSection=Leica%20Engraved%20Cameras%2C%20Lenses%20%26%20Accessories Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Hi SideB, Take a look here Has the bottom fallen out of the Leica collectors' market?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jerzy Posted June 17, 2015 Share #2 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) While the cameras are genuine, the engravings are definitely fake. They remaind on fantasy engravins on Russian FED/ZORKIS. There are even grammatical errors there. fake engravings like these lower the value, question is how many bidders will notice Edited June 17, 2015 by jerzy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SideB Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted June 17, 2015 Are all the engravings fake? If so they must all come from the same source. It could be a great opportunity to pick up an M4 and Summilux cheap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 17, 2015 Share #4 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) I think you can search the past auctions and find actual 'sold' prices. Have you ever heard the phrase 'come and buy me estimate' - auctioneers put a low estimate to draw attention and entice buyers to bid - look, it's worked on you! Bidders will bid up to whatever they're prepared to pay on the day and my guess is that most will sell for no less than they're actually worth (bear in mind that you also need to add the auction house commission to the hammer price which is usually another 20% or so, and everything is 'sold as seen'). Edited June 17, 2015 by earleygallery 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 17, 2015 Share #5 Posted June 17, 2015 The Noctilux is someway acctractive... wouldn't it be for that indecent yellow engraving.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 18, 2015 Share #6 Posted June 18, 2015 It would only take a couple of searches on Google to work out that these cameras are worth much more than the estimates. Unless, of course, the bottom has recently fallen out of the collectors' market and I failed to notice. A market where the bottom has fallen out is the housing market, but look at auction estimates and then look at the sale price, it's a wake up call. Low estimates are to ensure even more people bid, and when more people bid the price goes way above the estimate. That said only fools carry on and pay more than the market rate for the item, so auction sale prices are often a better way to determine true market value. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lleo Posted June 18, 2015 Share #7 Posted June 18, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I agree. It seems to me the same translation I see in the chinese sites, or anyways chinese stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SideB Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share #8 Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) So the conclusion is these are genuine Leica cameras and lenses that have been "enhanced" by the addition of bogus engravings which have made it difficult for the auction house to estimate their value? Isn't it illegal to sell fakes and even if it isn't won't many of these end up back on the market as the genuine article? I am thinking of the Leih models. Edited June 18, 2015 by SideB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckrider Posted June 18, 2015 Share #9 Posted June 18, 2015 That Leica I Model B Rim set MUST be a fake camera! http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/special-auction-services/catalogue-id-srspe10110/lot-18cf9f6c-aa88-4bbd-b348-a4b100add724 Who would be such a complete idiot to engrave an immaculate I rimset camera with ‘Leitz-Eigentum 1/2’? and that "Krankenhaus Centrum Ramstein" http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/special-auction-services/catalogue-id-srspe10110/lot-b3e985de-698e-4ce8-956a-a4b100add724 is officially called "Landstuhl Regional Medical Center" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstuhl_Regional_Medical_Center a number of cheap M4-2s & M4-Ps raped, woeful... Thomas Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 18, 2015 Share #10 Posted June 18, 2015 That Leica I Model B Rim set MUST be a fake camera! http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/special-auction-services/catalogue-id-srspe10110/lot-18cf9f6c-aa88-4bbd-b348-a4b100add724 Who would be such a complete idiot to engrave an immaculate I rimset camera with ‘Leitz-Eigentum 1/2’?..... Thomas ... and so completely idiot to try to sell a supposed Leica Compur without displaying some detailed pictures ? .... All this auction looks a joke.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 18, 2015 Share #11 Posted June 18, 2015 So the conclusion is these are genuine Leica cameras and lenses that have been "enhanced" by the addition of bogus engravings which have made it difficult for the auction house to estimate their value? Isn't it illegal to sell fakes and even if it isn't won't many of these end up back on the market as the genuine article? I am thinking of the Leih models. Clearly they haven't been fooled because as you say the 'estimate' is well below the real price for such an item even for a bog standard version of the camera or lens. A good M4-P body would be in the region of £450-£650 irrespective of any official or unofficial engraving, or the additional lens. So who is being ripped off if you could get an M4-P and a lens for £200? Only collectors who should know better before they bid on a Bundeswehr, otherwise somebody else got a bargain. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lleo Posted June 18, 2015 Share #12 Posted June 18, 2015 I haven't check that site deeply, but if they are selling stuff for someone else, they should check where their items come from, at least. But, it's the ever existing story about offering what the people look for. If more and more people look for an Luftwaffen Eigentum, rather than a Reichsmarine, or a Betriebskamera rather than a who knows what special, limited or particular model, anyways models existing in little numbers, it's obvious other people not really straight "produce" several items to satisfy the demand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Beacock Posted June 19, 2015 Share #13 Posted June 19, 2015 It's all very odd. These engravings look like typical markings for a government/defence establishment bulk purchase of equipment which are now all surplus to requirements. Which may also explain the misspelling or thoughtless application of engravings on what are potentially valuable items. But I would have thought that, if anything, this would detract from the likely worth of an item, regardless of what it was. Furthermore if someone has gone to the trouble to engrave all of these thinking it will increase value, then why the bulk release of these on an auction site? Why not eek them out on a platform such as eBay with a high level of details and pictures to drive up the price? Also surely anyone would realise that cameras such as these would fetch more unmarked, or at least marked in a way that may increase the value rather than potentially devalue it. Are ex-military/government Leica's, except for those with a real historic connection of some sort, really considered to be worth more? I would have thought they would have had a brutal life, far from the cosseted life most Leicas lead, and consequently be worth far less! Which again makes me think it odd that someone would bother faking markings like this in the first place. Personally I'd jump at the chance of getting a cheap M4-P and lens, and couldn't give a hoot as to what's engraved on it and what the resale value may be! It's a tool, a great tool, and as long as it works you never know, you might be getting a bargain! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SideB Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share #14 Posted June 19, 2015 I agree. I also find it baffling why anyone would take a valuable camera and engrave it so badly that the markings can be instantly dismissed as fake. Presumably the target market was Leica collectors, not just someone looking for a souvenir in a Prague flea market. We are not talking here about Feds and Zorkis decorated with 1936 Berlin Olympic rings or Nazi Swastikas that will sell for a couple of hundred dollars. If the fakers have the skills to remove the old inscriptions, repaint the camera and add new ones in order to enhance the value to collectors, why would they not go to the trouble to get the insciptions right? It is like a forger putting the wrong picture on a fake £20 note. All they would have to do would be to copy the inscriptions off one of the many existing well-documented cameras which they are clearly capable of doing. Summiluxes and M4s have never been cheap items. I suspect there's an interesting story behind this collection and how it came to auction. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 19, 2015 Share #15 Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) An appropriate description for these examples would be 'defaced'. Sloppy work. Even the color lacquer stick filling is very badly done. Zoom in to see. And why the photographer did not even dust off the camera before making the pictures - terrible negligence. Edited June 19, 2015 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 19, 2015 Share #16 Posted June 19, 2015 Who would be such a complete idiot to engrave an immaculate I rimset camera with ‘Leitz-Eigentum 1/2’? It is like finding an ancient coin marked 10 BC 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lleo Posted June 19, 2015 Share #17 Posted June 19, 2015 lmao Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted June 19, 2015 Share #18 Posted June 19, 2015 The first camera is owned both by the Bundeswehr(Luftwaffe) and Leica: Bundeswehreigentum and Leitz-Eigentum. I wonder if the army (air force) is getting to use it on even days and Leitz on odd ones. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted June 19, 2015 Share #19 Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Sadly enough, some bidders will fall into the trap and bid in full believe to acquire unique, rare item. Punishment for the lack of knowledge? i just wonder, why SAS call themselves reputable and experienced action house - an easy research would be enough to understand what they offer. On the other side - not a single note that cameras and engravings are genuine. IMO this is not a serious auction house. Edited June 19, 2015 by jerzy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 19, 2015 Share #20 Posted June 19, 2015 A bit hard on the auction house IMO. If you take note of the estimates they seem to be well aware of the "value" of these cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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