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Hood fitting problem with 50mm SX black chrome (11688)


Winedemonium

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Email from Leica CS earlier this year, after chasing them.

 

"I have asked again my colleagues in this matter.

 

It was determined by our product management that no modified or new lens hood is provided here.

Unfortunately I have no influence on this decision.
I regret that I can not help you in this situation."

 

So yeah. They couldn't give less of a flying duck. I find it absolutely unbelievable.

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So yeah. They couldn't give less of a flying duck. I find it absolutely unbelievable.

 

 

It's certainly not one of Leica's finest moments but I would have been amazed had they addressed this problem by re-engineering the hood. I get the impression that once a product is released – and especially in this case, the lens being a limited edition – Leica rarely entertains making any changes or revisit the design. The only one I can think of in recent times was the 21/F3.4 and this was a 'voluntary' change, not something that was requested by buyers of the lens. I also think Leica make a rather unwarranted and cynical assumption that most of the buyers of these non-regular lenses are unlikely to use the lens in a serious manner and it therefore doesn't matter so much if the buyer cannot fit both the hood and, for example, a coloured filter for B&W. The new 28 Summaron-M has also been produced with little thought to anyone using it with filters. When I enquired about this I received a helpful reply but also an admission that the Leica engineers hadn't actually determined whether the hood will fit when using the most commonly available E34 filter (for the record, it doesn't – Leica for some reason known only to themselves have made the hood fitting of the new Summaron slightly larger than the A36 of the original lens).

 

Unless I am mistaken (LCT, being the best authority on these kind of questions, may correct me) there is a solution to the 50 Summilux black chrome problem using one of the E43 UV filters that Leica previously sold.  The glass in this filter can be swapped with the desired filter glass from other E43 filters if UV is not the desired filter.

Edited by wattsy
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So yeah. They couldn't give less of a flying duck. I find it absolutely unbelievable.

I suppose the mistaken assumption from Leica is that people don't want to sully a limited edition lens by mounting it on a camera and actually taking pictures.

 

Mein Gott! What a ludicrous thought!

 

(I have one of these lenses, and I do use it so I share the frustrations voiced here).

Edited by jcraf
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Do not attempt to use the E43 13417 UV/IR filter, since the pitch of the filter thread is 0.5mm and will cross thread and damage your lens, which takes only the standard 43mm x 0.75mm filter.

 

 

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I have this lens and mostly use it with the filter and w/o the hood in normal lighting situations. If the lighting situations are extreme, I take of the filter and use the hood.  Overgard has a solution for those of you who want to use the hood with a filter 

 

 

Edited by rsh
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Okay, I purchased Overgard's 43 Lens Shade.  It seems to be well built and it priced like a Leica Lens Shade - $159.00.  46 mm filters screw into the inside of the lens shade but it has an adapter for 43 mm Filters.  Alternately, the shade will screw into a 43 mm filter mounted on the lens. 

Edited by rsh
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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, I purchased Overgard's 43 Lens Shade. It seems to be well built and it priced like a Leica Lens Shade - $159.00. 46 mm filters screw into the inside of the lens shade but it has an adapter for 43 mm Filters. Alternately, the shade will screw into a 43 mm filter mounted on the lens.

 

 

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Yes, Overgaard deserves applause for his E43 Ventilated Lens Shade specifically designed for the black chrome 50mm Summilux-M. Made of black painted aluminum, the E43 hood (about 65 mm O.D. x 20mm h) is more shallow and lightweight than Leica's black chromed brass lens hood (65mm x 29mm h). The E43 hood screws into the lens, whereas the Leica hood mounts with hood catches, which we all know does not permit the use of a filter with the hood attached to the lens. Here, Overgaard solves the problem that escaped Leica and frustrated all of us.

 

That Leica would design a lens that would not permit attaching a filter and the Leica lens hood simultaneously is perplexing. Leica announced that the limited edition black chrome Lux was inspired by the 1959 Summilux, somehow forgetting that the original design accepted only slim E43 Leica filters, as described by Ken Rockwell: "The maximum outside diameter of these 43mm-threaded filters is just 43.8mm, and they extend only 3.00mm forward from the lens' front filter-mounting flange." These filters cannot be used on the black chrome Lux because their thread pitch is 0.5 mm. For this reason, current filters cannot be switched out into the older 43.8mm x 3mm x 0.5mm p mounts, which will cross thread the black chrome Lux. B & H 43mm filters, on the other hand, are 45mm x 4mm x 0.75mm p.

 

Instead of buying Overgaard's E43 Black Paint Ventilated Shade for $159 (E43 Silver Ventilated Shade $169 or E43 Red Ventilated Shade $189), there is the Amazon option of a 43mm vented lens hood, black anodized aluminum, (23mm x 55mm) for $10 or less. These don't have the cool factor of the Overgaard E43s, though I was disappointed in the quality control of my Black Paint E43 when it arrived, which had two rough spots that were simply not finished well. Even so, one can only appreciate that the E43 meets the demand of a narrow market and will probably sell out in short order.

 

A useful feature of Overgaard's E43 hood is the built-in step up ring that accommodates 46mm filters. Two lens filter caps are included with the package: 43mm and 46mm.

 

 

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Yes, Overgaard deserves applause for his E43 Ventilated Lens Shade specifically designed for the black chrome 50mm Summilux-M. Made of black painted aluminum, the E43 hood (about 65 mm O.D. x 20mm h) is more shallow and lightweight than Leica's black chromed brass lens hood (65mm x 29mm h). The E43 hood screws into the lens, whereas the Leica hood mounts with hood catches, which we all know does not permit the use of a filter with the hood attached to the lens. Here, Overgaard solves the problem that escaped Leica and frustrated all of us.

 

 

Kudos to Overgaard for creating, manufacturing and distributing a solution to this problem. If I was CEO of Leica I would offer any owner of this lens who applies to reimburse the expense of buying this aftermarket shade along with a letter of apology for the error.

 

What I found particularly grating was the lack of admission from Leica that they had made a mistake. In the very least we should have received an apology. I found the response arrogant, which surprised me, because my impression in so many other instances is that Leica listen to their user community. 

 

Oh well. I sold my lens at a loss, as the frustration from this issue took some of the pleasure out of using it. 

 

For all that, I continue to be an ongoing customer and user, and like Leica very much. 

 

But I think they would do well to at least acknowledge that they made a mistake with this lens.

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I suppose that at 64, I am no longer as OCD as I once was.  I  agree that the Black Paint 43 mm Overgard hood does not have a perfect finish, but pretty close.  Even if it did, it would not look perfect after use.  

 

As for Leica not supplying a 43 mm UVa Filter that works with the Summilux Hood design, the economic costs of producing a limited production filter for a limited production lens probably did not make since.  I would have preferred they had made one, but because I wanted this lens in brass, I overlooked the issue.

Edited by rsh
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You're right from what I have read, so I would double check with Overgaard for compatibility, even though his webpage says that it is all right.

 

"The lens I had in mind for this ventilated lens shade was my 50mm Summilux-M ASPH f/1.4 Black Chrome limited edition. There is also a LHSA edition of this lens, as well as a lot of old, classic 50mm Summilux lenses made from 1959 and forward. "

This lens shade fits any 43mm filter threads, Leica and any other brand:

Leica 50mm Summilux-M f/1.4 Silver (1959)

Leica 50mm Summilux-M f/1.4 Black (1959)

Leica 50mm Summilux-M f/1.4 ASPH LHSA Silver (2004) limited edition

Leica 50mm Summilux-M f/1.4 ASPH LHSA Black Chrome (2004) limited edition

Leica 50mm Summilux-M f/1.4 ASPH Black Chrome (2016) limited edition

Zeiss 35mm f/2 ZM Biogon T* Manual Focus Lens

 

Ken Rockwell says, however, that the following Summilux 50mm lenses take 43mm x 0.5mm filters: 1959-61 type 1 11114, 1961-68 Type 2 11114, 1969-91 Type 2 11114. Refer to Rockwell's webpage.

 

43mm Filter Thread Pitch

 

"I measured a sample from 1964 and its 43mm thread pitch is the finer 0.5mm pitch. Newer 43mm non-LEICA filters have a coarser 0.75mm pitch.

 

"I see different LEICA catalogs list some lenses as 0.75mm, and others as 0.5mm. I don't trust that these listings are true.

 

"Since there are two thread pitches running around for 43mm lens accessories, regardless of the pitch of your lens, there is a very good chance that whatever non-LEICA item you attempt to screw into your SUMMILUX won't have the correct pitch.

 

"Be very careful when attaching screw-in accessories. If something gets stiff, don't force it. If you do, you could destroy both your SUMMILUX and your accessory.

 

 

Go to Ken Rockwell's excellent guide to 43mm Leica filters for further information.

 

 

 

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I suppose that at 64, I am no longer as OCD as I once was. I agree that the Black Paint 43 mm Overgard hood does not have a perfect finish, but pretty close. Even if it did, it would not look perfect after use.

 

As for Leica not supplying a 43 mm UVa Filter that works with the Summilux Hood design, the economic costs of producing a limited production filter for a limited production lens probably did not make since. I would have preferred they had made one, but because I wanted this lens in brass, I overlooked the issue.

 

 

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For me, the Overgaard E43 ventilated lens shade in black painted aluminum is an aesthetic mismatch with the black chrome brass of the Lux. It is flimsy, unLeica. It contradicts the style of the 12586 vented hood design. It does not have the gravity of Leica. It is, after all, simply an aftermarket product that attempts to answer an unfulfilled promise that Leica has ignored. The promise of excellence and functionality. Did Leica market this Limited Edition lens with the caveat that the buyer would be unable to use a filter once the lens hood was attached? How many other current Leica lenses are designed in such a way that once you attach a filter you can no longer use the lens hood? So Leica expects photographers who need to use ND or B/W color correction filters to buy an additional aftermarket hood and leave the nonfunctional Leica hood sitting in a box? Really!

 

This problem should've been addressed in the design phase. Rather, Leica produced the lens without road testing it in a practical shooting situation, otherwise they would've immediately seen the problem of not being able to use filters with the hood. Really! It is not our responsibility as end-users to provide Leica with the solution to its design shortcoming with this lens.

 

 

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For me, the Overgaard E43 ventilated lens shade in black painted aluminum is an aesthetic mismatch with the black chrome brass of the Lux. It is flimsy, unLeica. It contradicts the style of the 12586 vented hood design. It does not have the gravity of Leica. It is, after all, simply an aftermarket product that attempts to answer an unfulfilled promise that Leica has ignored. The promise of excellence and functionality. Did Leica market this Limited Edition lens with the caveat that the buyer would be unable to use a filter once the lens hood was attached? How many other current Leica lenses are designed in such a way that once you attach a filter you can no longer use the lens hood? So Leica expects photographers who need to use ND or B/W color correction filters to buy an additional aftermarket hood and leave the nonfunctional Leica hood sitting in a box? Really!

 

This problem should've been addressed in the design phase. Rather, Leica produced the lens without road testing it in a practical shooting situation, otherwise they would've immediately seen the problem of not being able to use filters with the hood.

 

 

Yes, I agree. At best, it is simply sloppy and unprofessional of Leica to introduce the lens without ensuring the hood can be used with easily obtainable filters and is emblematic of the modern Leica which is as much about show and style than it is about engineering and function. The new 28 Summaron-M also has this problem. The lens can use commonly available E34 filters from Heliopan but the hood will no longer fit. When I asked Leica about the filter specification, to their credit, I received a quick answer, but it essentially confirmed that the engineers had no idea whether the hood would fit. It doesn't fit with the filter in place. What is doubly strange is that Leica changed the internal diameter of the new Summaron hood (and the corresponding outer diameter of the lens) from the previous A36 standard and the new hood is too loose to fit onto an A36 compatible filter. The solution for the 28 Summaron-M, like the black chrome 50 Summilux, seems to be to buy a Thorsten third-party hood which, according to reports here, not only allows the user to fit the hood with E34 filter in place but has an internal thread to allow the use of E39 filters too. By contrast, the Leica hood, which according to Leica is "an homage to the fine art of engineering", doesn't seem to work with any filter. :mellow:

 

Personally, I've taken to jury rigging the Leica hood on to the Heliopan filter using a thin elastic band to boost the outside diameter of the filter. The fine art of engineering indeed. :D

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Edited by wattsy
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  • 4 weeks later...

Kudos to Overgaard for creating, manufacturing and distributing a solution to this problem. If I was CEO of Leica I would offer any owner of this lens who applies to reimburse the expense of buying this aftermarket shade along with a letter of apology for the error.

 

What I found particularly grating was the lack of admission from Leica that they had made a mistake. In the very least we should have received an apology. I found the response arrogant, which surprised me, because my impression in so many other instances is that Leica listen to their user community. 

 

Oh well. I sold my lens at a loss, as the frustration from this issue took some of the pleasure out of using it. 

 

For all that, I continue to be an ongoing customer and user, and like Leica very much. 

 

But I think they would do well to at least acknowledge that they made a mistake with this lens.

First, thank you for starting this thread and exercising such tenacity with everyone else in trying to resolve this issue that has occupied an inordinate number of hours.  Are we in the thousands of hours, yet? When I finally took delivery of my black chrome Lux in December 2015, I was blindsided, like many, with the filter/hood issue and fired off an enquiry to Leica NJ. After six months of back and forth, in July 2016, I suggested that “Leica might consider: produce an updated E43 UVa filter based on the mount of the E43 UV/IR #13417, only having 0.75mm pitch threads instead of the finer .5mm threads of the #13417. What’s important in solving the lens hood problem is that the 3mm ridge of the #13417 fits perfectly between the prongs of the Summilux-M lens hood catches in shooting position as well as reversed for traveling. Also, this updated E43 UVa filter can be stacked on top of another filter (ND, color filter, etc.) and the lens hood can be attached for shooting or reversed for traveling. Two filters stacked using this updated #13417 as the outermost filter moves the hood forward about 9mm, but I don’t see any vignetting from the hood.

"What I have done in the meantime is to modify a slimline UV filter, first removing the filter, then reducing the mount into a 45mm x 3mm spacer ring. This spacer ring allows me to easily change filters and attach the hood to the lens as it is designed. Now I can use ND filters with slower shutter speeds and wide open f-stops.” The Leica rep in NJ thanked for me for the suggestions which he said were to be forwarded to Germany and that was the end of it.

It is truly sad to hear that you have been so frustrated by this issue that your resolution was to eliminate the irritant--sell the black chrome Lux at a loss--because the pleasure of using it had been taken!

Is Leica listening to the silence?

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