luigi bertolotti Posted June 28, 2015 Share #21 Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, Mine is 920359. Note the absence of GmbH on front of lens. https://flic.kr/p/vh7ydZ https://flic.kr/p/ujXiek My 920382 ,not surprisingly, also lacks "GmbH" Edited June 28, 2015 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 28, 2015 Posted June 28, 2015 Hi luigi bertolotti, Take a look here earliest M mount Summicron 5 cm?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jc_braconi Posted June 29, 2015 Share #22 Posted June 29, 2015 Hi, Alan. I was interested in hearing about your BM Summicron 1,044,534, this serial being lower than the one of my SCREW nº 1,044,907! Leica numbering system was definitely not designed to help collectors ! Absolutely Pierre.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 29, 2015 Share #23 Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) Hi, Mine is 920359. Note the absence of GmbH on front of lens. https://flic.kr/p/vh7ydZ https://flic.kr/p/ujXiek Hey... from your 2nd picture I've just noticed that it looks a BM !!! Or I am wrong and is onto M3 via adapter ? I can't see so straight the position of the red reference for bayonet mount... maybe on the adapter... but if it is a BM it has an incredbly low s/n !!! Edited June 29, 2015 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabphoto73 Posted June 29, 2015 Share #24 Posted June 29, 2015 Hi Luigi, Yes it is bayonet mount. I think the front aperture differs slightly between bayonet and screw mount. Also correct me if I am wrong but I remember reading they used slightly different glass in these early ones? Although mine does not appear so yellow in colour like other's I've seen. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/245784-earliest-m-mount-summicron-5-cm/?do=findComment&comment=2844169'>More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted June 29, 2015 Share #25 Posted June 29, 2015 Erwin Puts notes that the original glass (from 1949) from a British firm was changed to a Schott glass in 1952. He also shows the availability starting in 1953, and that it was made in both LTM and M from the start, so correlating to M3 production is hard. The optical "collapsing" units of my LTM and M mount samples are identical design, so by removing the rear locking flange (one screw) these could be swapped easily (but focus would likely need to be adjusted). Factory conversions to the mount would have been possible, but doesn't sound economically feasible. However, I have a IIIf that was converted from a IIIa in this timeframe, and that required a new (longer) body (keeping the IIIa serial from the 30s) so the factory did accommodate such unusual requests, possibly so the unit could keep the old serial number as "repaired" and not have customs issues when sent back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted June 29, 2015 Share #26 Posted June 29, 2015 Hey... from your 2nd picture I've just noticed that it looks a BM !!! Or I am wrong and is onto M3 via adapter ? I can't see so straight the position of the red reference for bayonet mount... maybe on the adapter... but if it is a BM it has an incredbly low s/n !!! I was surprised that you dont react to that post when published 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted June 29, 2015 Share #27 Posted June 29, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I received last week the new book "SUMMICRON" from Pierpaolo Ghisetti and Marco Cavina written in both Italian and English A real rich idea to dedicate a study on the 35, 50 and 90 famous leica lens I learned a lot of things reading this deep and large study and I hope a "SUMMILUX" will follows I highly recommend you this book if you want to know all on these lenses purchase near Foto Camera in Milano "fcmil" on Ebay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabphoto73 Posted June 29, 2015 Share #28 Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) You can see difference here between screw and bayonet. Front aperture ring is different. Would seem a lot of expense and work to change bayonet and front aperture ring, especially as there were already existing bayonet lenses by the time M3 came out. Wiki say the first batch were only screw mount.... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited June 29, 2015 by fabphoto73 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/245784-earliest-m-mount-summicron-5-cm/?do=findComment&comment=2844527'>More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted June 30, 2015 Share #29 Posted June 30, 2015 The aperture ring difference was a running change during production. I have two LTM and one M and the aperture rings are identical: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/245784-earliest-m-mount-summicron-5-cm/?do=findComment&comment=2844552'>More sharing options...
ironringer Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share #30 Posted June 30, 2015 Fabphoto73 and Mr. Bertolotti certainly win the prize(s) for oldest M-Summicron collapsible 5cm lenses, with their 920xxx group being MUCH earlier (about 2 years, made in 1951) than my 1953 example 1103xxx. This shows that Leitz was experimenting with the M-mount long before the introduction of the M3 in early 1954, and even manufacturing small batches of M-Summicrons two years before they could be sold with matching cameras. Perhaps the 920xxx group were test lenses, and later sold to the public. This has been an interesting discussion, showing some early M-Summicron 5cm lenses and variations. We are too late to interview factory workers from almost 65 years ago, but perhaps that new SUMMICRON reference book has more historical details of M lens development. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 30, 2015 Share #31 Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Fabphoto73 and Mr. Bertolotti certainly win the prize(s) for oldest M-Summicron collapsible 5cm lenses, with their 920xxx group ..... Well, my one is in screw mount, indeed (see my post #8) ... very old but I don't consider it a rarity (and paid an honest price for it, infact... btw I am even not 100% sure is a "radioactive" one.... can't swear on the full originality of the front element... ) Edited June 30, 2015 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
insomnigraphic Posted April 27, 2019 Share #32 Posted April 27, 2019 My M-mount collapsible is numbered 921672. Apparently 1951. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted April 27, 2019 Share #33 Posted April 27, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, insomnigraphic said: My M-mount collapsible is numbered 921672. Apparently 1951. 😉we need some pictures, now. Nice find if it's M mount 👍 Funny as this number is not far from my Collapsible 5cm Summicron screw mount 921 0xx Edited April 27, 2019 by a.noctilux Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted April 28, 2019 Share #34 Posted April 28, 2019 (edited) On 6/30/2015 at 8:27 AM, ironringer said: Fabphoto73 and Mr. Bertolotti certainly win the prize(s) for oldest M-Summicron collapsible 5cm lenses, with their 920xxx group ... … Don't forget Alan Mcfall and his items… (see post #15… and those are just his Summicrons… there's much more in his collection…) Edited April 28, 2019 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sully Posted April 28, 2019 Share #35 Posted April 28, 2019 For those who care, I have a 5cm, LTM, Mtrs, with GmbH on front ring, tick marks above F stop ring (see post 28), yellow glass, serial number #920686. I'm wondering what was the serial number for the first GmbH mark on front ring? Ciao, Sully Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted April 28, 2019 Share #36 Posted April 28, 2019 (edited) Eh… difficult to say when "GmbH" entered into the front engraving… but yours can be one of the first ones, indeed…. I'm far to have an exhaustive record… but have no evidence of 920.xxx with GmbH before yours (921.172 is the oldest I have a picture of… Alan's 920.838 could be significant to compare…) Edited April 28, 2019 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted April 28, 2019 Share #37 Posted April 28, 2019 Summicrons, screw mount: 920218 does not have GmbH 920838 does have GmbH Probably hard to predict an exact time for the start of the private company liability engraving. After receiving the government approval paperwork. leitz could only move so fast with the variety of products in production, and some stock of existing parts which would be consumed at differing rates. Certainly, 1951 seems to be the year it started occuring, but a precise serial number for the Summicron may be elusive. Above, is a span of some 620 lenses. And there may also be some overlap. Some photos show lens lots in wood boxes of 50 lenses, as they were delivered to different assembly teams. Different boxes may had different instructions or teams may have had different engravers for a short period. All guessing on my part. The Summarex lenses were much lower volume, but my 940xxx series lenses (1951) do not have the GmbH, while the 1008000 lot (1952) 85 lenses have it. Only have a few in each lot, so there could be exceptions. How Summicon lenses in the 1951 lot currently are M Bayonet mounted is interesting. I suspose the options are: 1) Leitz made them that way, in 1951 for extremely advanced M camera prototype testing or evaluation. 2) A few serial numbers were unfulfilled due to whatever reasons, defects held back by outgoing quality control, or other reasons. Later on, closer to M existance they were reallocated into a bayonet lot but still keeping the early serial ring. 3) A unique customer request to have his/her screw mount summicron updated with bayonet mount. Unlikely, but Leitz did sometimes accommodate unnatural requests. 4) Technicians, factory or private at an unknown point modified the lens by changing the mount or even changing the front screw in ring with the egraving. The latter looks easy to do. Either way, a great lens for your very early M3. Photos of M3 prototypes I have seen, all have the GmbH, including 700059 that was used for marketing material preparation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted April 29, 2019 Share #38 Posted April 29, 2019 (edited) God only knows how they did manage this "GmbH" issue at factory level… another of my findings is that Summarons 35 without GmbH do exist next to 1.000.000 (980.xxx) for what is worth… Edited April 29, 2019 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchs Posted July 23, 2019 Share #39 Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) Hello. Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I wanted to contribute the pictures of one of my collapsible Summicrons, I think it is the very first one that left commercially Wetzlar. It came attached to a IIIf RD no ST that I bought locally about 5 years ago to the first owner heir, for the normal price one is expected to pay for such a combo in not working condition (around 500 €). It was just later that I realized the rarity of the SN of the lens. As all of you can note, this one has the GmbH. engraved on the front name ring Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited July 23, 2019 by fuchs 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/245784-earliest-m-mount-summicron-5-cm/?do=findComment&comment=3783904'>More sharing options...
fuchs Posted July 23, 2019 Share #40 Posted July 23, 2019 BTW, the front element is mildly radioactive, I will shortly post a video showing a Geiger-Muller counter response to it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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