50 APO... 28 Lux... ?

[Winedemonium]

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I know that a bit of star gazing is common around here. Some people enjoy the guessing, others see it as pointless. I'll address the first group  ...

 

I was looking up some info on the Leica site today and wanted to see the specs on the 2/50 APO. I noted that they introduced this as "This is the first lens ever to fully exploit the capabilities of modern high-resolution camera systems..." (emphasis mine). This is very similar to what Zeiss have to say about their Otus line (which went 55mm, then 85mm, and a 24/25/28 rumoured for release this year).

 

Then, the 1.4/28 on the Leica site - "It completes the high speed prime lens family." (emphasis mine).

 

Hmmm...

 

I have been wondering for a while now when a new long focal length lens will come out. The 2/75 is in the fully modern guise, a Karbe design, and based on the 1.4/50 ASPH. It has that "over" the 2/90, as well as closer focusing, and, perhaps critically, Leica's now standard trick of a floating element/group. 

 

I had been wondering, like some, if the 75mm might be the one to 'complete' the fast lens line up.

 

But I am now thinking perhaps the 2/90 might be the next in line for re-work after all. Bear in mind too, that after the 2/35, it is the oldest lens in the current suite, released in 1998.

 

I'm not trying to suggest it is a poor performer, nor that it 'needs' re-work. But I'm going to guess it is the next in line. The question then is - will it be a smaller rework, say updating with a floating element group, knocking a few grams off the load, some cosmetic updates, etc (which is as much as the 1.4/35 got in 2010), or will it be a major rework, a kind of super-90, in line with what we have seen the the 50-APO?

 

Honestly, your guess is as good as (probably better than) mine. I would be intrigued to see something new at the long end.

[Symeon]

90mm was never a primary concern for Leica since most users prefer the 50mm. As for FLE and APO, yes - this is the future for most high end Leica lenses. So are the expected prices that will ensue from such lethal optical combination. My guess of course (probably not better than yours).

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[gpwhite]

It could be that a Karbe designed APO 75 Summilux ASPH will be offered just as soon as the Leica M supports an up-to-date EVF, so that focusing the beast is made much more approachable.

 

But when you read Thorsten's most recent published interview with Karbe, it is not apparent that a Karbe 75 SX would be anything like the painterly Mandler 75 SX. Karbe does not like the creamy style that Mandler aimed for. But we are likely taking this too seriously, as we imagine the product of different photographic tools. In Wetzlar, after all, they are thinking about products to sell. Just my guess.

[CheshireCat]

But I am now thinking perhaps the 2/90 might be the next in line for re-work after all. Bear in mind too, that after the 2/35, it is the oldest lens in the current suite, released in 1998.

 

I'm not trying to suggest it is a poor performer, nor that it 'needs' re-work. But I'm going to guess it is the next in line. The question then is - will it be a smaller rework, say updating with a floating element group, knocking a few grams off the load, some cosmetic updates, etc (which is as much as the 1.4/35 got in 2010), or will it be a major rework, a kind of super-90, in line with what we have seen the the 50-APO?

 

As I have commented in other threads, I find the 90AA performance disappointing by today's standards, especially at portrait distance. I also think the lens does not deserve the APO label, as it is poorly corrected for longitudinal chromatic aberration.

I returned my 90AA in exchange for a 75AA, which is a much better lens, quite smaller and just a little wider.

 

I doubt the 90 will be updated if people continue praising the "amazing qualities" of this outdated lens and recommending it.

A major redesign is required to have a 90 [really] APO in line with the 50 APO.

[Herr Barnack]

As an owner of the 90/2.0 APO lens, I cannot see any possible way that a user of this lens could ever find anything to complain about in terms of image quality. 

[CheshireCat]

As an owner of the 90/2.0 APO lens, I cannot see any possible way that a user of this lens could ever find anything to complain about in terms of image quality. 

 

Like I said, very few photographers (and even less owners) dare say a $4000 lens is underwhelming.

[gpwhite]

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I do not use my 90 AA very often because it is such a long lens, relative to my compositions (it is my longest lens of any type). I wish I did work with it more, however, because it is truly superb... even wide open. CA is well controlled on mine... as good as the vaunted Zeiss APO 135 Sonnar I had. I wonder if CheshireCat had a bad sample? Leica certainly ships those from time to time  , despite its quality control cards. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

My 90 APO is one of my favourites. I only wish I had bought it sooner.

 

I too wonder if Cheshire Cat had a poor copy.

 

Gordon

[semi-ambivalent]

Like I said, very few photographers (and even less owners) dare say a $4000 lens is underwhelming.

But if they think it is, and can demonstrate it, the more important it is that they speak out. It's joke enough about Apple users having 'swallowed the Kool-Aid'. The last thing Leica needs is a clientele that is afraid to complain if such is warranted.

 

s-a

[lct]

Apochromatic lenses have little CA generally and my  90/2 and 75/2 are among the best from this standpoint. At close distance, the 90/2 apo is a bit softer than the 75/2 apo but i have no problem at all for sharp portraits with the former. All in all my best 90 for sharp results with the latest Elmarit 90/2.8 and the current Macro-Elmar 90/4. I prefer the pre-apo 90/2  for softer portaits though even if its CA is significantly higher.

Edited May 26, 2015 by lct

[IkarusJohn]

I've always enjoyed my AA 90 Summicron. Despite having a shallower depth of field wide open than the Noctilux (1mm compared to 2mm for the Noct wide open at 1 metre), it is remarkably easy to focus. An APO 75 Summilux would also have 1mm wide open at 1 metre - not much use for portraiture ...

 

Peter Karbe dislikes the 75 Summilux - perhaps that might be a candidate?

 

An APO 90 Summilux ASPH would have an even thinner depth of field (beyond the capabilities of my calculator).

Edited May 26, 2015 by IkarusJohn

[CheshireCat]

even wide open. CA is well controlled on mine... as good as the vaunted Zeiss APO 135 Sonnar I had. I wonder if CheshireCat had a bad sample?

 

I have tested just one copy (brand new) of the 90AA, but the results I got are no worse than many other photos I have seen around.

So if I had a bad copy, I am certainly not the only one 

 

I also own the Zeiss 135/2 APO Sonnar, and expected similar performance from the 90AA. That was not the case.

 

I'd like to see a 90AA vs Otus 85 comparison. Properly done, that should clear any doubt.

[lct]

So you don't own a 90/2 apo and you go repeating that it has a CA problem really?

[Winedemonium]

I used to have the 2/90 APO, and thought it was a good lens. I have the 1.4/85 Otus, and I think it rivals my 50 APO, as does my 55 Otus. (The 50 APO gets much more use because it is tiny and the other two are enormous). Those three lenses sit on a new level. That level didn't make any other lens worse. It is not just a matter of improvements, it is a matter of priorities. Zeiss is working flat out on formulas for digital sensors. The new 1.4/35ZM shows both their prowess, and their priorities - from what I have seen, I prefer its rendering to the 1.4/35 FLE, but I would rather have the 1.4/35 FLE because it is at the size limit, and the Zeiss is over it. Size is Zeiss's achilles heel. The two Otus lenses are ridiculously big, and then attached to a D810, I treat this as a tripod rig. It's the thin end of medium format, and certainly medium format thinking. You see the image on the sensor or via a mirror, so length and girth don't matter (as much) - that's Zeiss's strength. If you still want to look through the optical viewfinder of your Leica M - like I do most of the time - then the 50 APO sets the right standard - perfection within the constraints of the Barnack Principle. The fact that this lens is compared at all to the Zeiss Otus 55 is a vindication for the Leica lens because it is a triumph of proportion. In scale, a 50mm optical viewfinder accessory is to the 50 APO what the 50 APO is to the Otus!

 

So, if Leica will make an update for the 90mm f/2, then I would be interested. FLE, improved optics for digital - take the 50 APO concept and work on the 90 version, in the same way that Zeiss are doing with Otus. 

 

The caveat though is this, I imagine - when you look back to the M3 (and older), 90mm seems to have been more common. If you go back through the catalogues, the 90mm focal length got a lot of attention from the '30s to the '60s. There were several lenses optimising different characteristics - Elmars, Tele-Elmars, Elmarits, Summicrons, (85) Summarex, Thambar. But today, how many Leica M photographers use 90mm a lot - say 30%+ of their files? And if a new 90 came out at a price approaching the 50 APO, how many would buy it? Certainly far fewer than would buy the 50 APO I imagine, because I would guess that a lot of 50 APO buyers who baulk at the price finally pull the trigger on that lens because they know they will use it 50%+ of the time.

 

A conundrum I think. Leica will have the numbers on 90mm use. I'm guessing the days when a 'Summarex' can be the dearest lens in the catalogue are long gone. But I'd love to see Leica do it. 1.4/21, 0.95/50, MM, and M60, all suggest there is at least a little craziness in the Leica DNA, and an uber-90 would be squarely within the Leica tradition.

 

So, while we are star gazing the evolution of the Leica M lens range, out of curiosity, who would buy an f/2 90mm Leica M lens made to the same standards as the 50 APO, at say 85% of the 50 APO cost? 

[CheshireCat]

So you don't own a 90/2 apo and you go repeating that it has a CA problem really?

 

Like I said, I had a 90/2 apo, and I returned it because it didn't match my expectations.

Am I not entitled to talk about my experience with the lens just because I do not currently own it ?

[semi-ambivalent]

 

So, while we are star gazing the evolution of the Leica M lens range, out of curiosity, who would buy an f/2 90mm Leica M lens made to the same standards as the 50 APO, at say 85% of the 50 APO cost? 

They might get more hits with an APO Elmarit-M. (At ISO 12000+ one needs f/2 why again?) I had the money to buy the Summicron if I needed it but intentionally chose a used Elmarit-M because it better fit my shooting needs. I suspect many could say that and that's why Leica killed it.

 

s-a

Edited May 27, 2015 by semi-ambivalent

[lct]

Leica "killed" the Elmarit 90/2.8 it because it duplicated the Summarit 90/2.5 if memory serves but i may be wrong. 

[philipus]

I returned my 90AA in exchange for a 75AA, which is a much better lens, quite smaller and just a little wider.

 

All is relative but the 75 APO is also a great deal for the money. It is actually quite inexpensive for a modern Leica lens. 

 

The Elmarit-M is a stunning performer in my opinion.

Edited May 27, 2015 by philipus

[semi-ambivalent]

Leica "killed" the Elmarit 90/2.8 it because it duplicated the Summarit 90/2.5 if memory serves but i may be wrong. 

Your memory is going to be better than mine here but the wiki says 2007 was the year of transition, with the Elmarit-M coming first. Summarit's doing the duplication here, but I've never shot one and have no idea how well it performs. I don't recall that line ever shaking it's 'low-end' connotation although I'm sure they're all pretty damn good. I noticed the ads when I was still in my Nikon days.

 

Regards,

s-a

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[algrove]

I loved my 90/2 and it performed flawlessly as did my MEM90. I sold both as well as my pre ASPH 90/2. Decided to keep just two. To this day I use the EM 90/2.8 and love its ease of use, extendable lens hood and E46 filter size. Will be trying my TE 90/2.8 225g on the M246. I mostly am trying to get back to small Leica lenses except for my FLE 35, APO50 and SEM 18.